[Wry]

Ok here's something i've been wondering about.

It was stated in one of the books that there are Azath houses to represent the various houses in the Deck of Dragons right? (i'm not too sure where it was stated).

So when Paran sanctioned the House of Chains, did a new Azath house spring up? the Finnest house maybe? (is that case was Paran living in enemy territory so to speak?) If not, then did a new space become available when the Finnest house grew, and is it this that made it possible for the CG to make his bid? (not to mention all the talk of a house of the whirlwind?)

Did the new Azath make it possible for a new house to come about, or vice versa?

Does this mean when an Azath dies a house ceases to be?

Does this make the Master of the Deck a tool of the Azath or vice versa?

[Hume]

Wry said:

It was stated in one of the books that there are Azath houses to represent the various houses in the Deck of Dragons right? (i'm not too sure where it was stated).

Does this make the Master of the Deck a tool of the Azath or vice versa?

As to your first statement....
The Answer would be No, It isnt actually stated anywhere that the Azath Houses are connected to the Deck of Dragons houses.


The Second one is possibly plausible though as a theory.

[Dolorous Menhir]

You can try and argue that various Houses have aspects.

For example the Lether house was surrounded by Jaghut towers, and took the place of the hold of death in some limited way. So you could argue it's aspect was Ice or Death.

The Finnest House can be connected with Ice in the same way (sprouted from Finnest, has Jaghut as Guardian).

Obviously the Deadhouse is Death again.

I'll go out on a limb and say fire for Tremorlor...and that's it for the known Azath, I think.

[GardenGnome]

Think back to what Cotilion said about Azath and elements, I believe it was in conversation with either Cutter or Edgewalker - I can't look it up, on holiday and haven't brought the books with me. Those passages should provide some very interesting material to theorize on.

[Wry]

HUME said:

As to your first statement....
The Answer would be No, It isnt actually stated anywhere that the Azath Houses are connected to the Deck of Dragons houses.

Silverfox to Paran: MoI page 118
'Tremolor is trellish for "High House life".'....


'You beleive the Houses of the Azath and the Houses of the Deck are one and the same.'
'Yes. Or linked, somehow. Think on it!'

Not definitive proof, but does indicate at least a connection.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Sure they are connected, it makes sense. There are almost certainly other Azath Houses on the continents not yet explored - Korelri, Jacuruku, Assail. They can have the missing aspects - Light, Dark, Shadow perhaps.

Not so sure about the one Azath per continent rule, that's a bit shaky. But I do think the death of Lether House in MT and the creation of the Finnest House in GotM are roughly concurrent. Don't think it's a coincidence two ice-connected houses would behave without influencing each other.

[Morgoth]

Dolorous Menhir said:

Sure they are connected, it makes sense. There are almost certainly other Azath Houses on the continents not yet explored - Korelri, Jacuruku, Assail. They can have the missing aspects - Light, Dark, Shadow perhaps.

Not so sure about the one Azath per continent rule, that's a bit shaky. But I do think the death of Lether House in MT and the creation of the Finnest House in GotM are roughly concurrent. Don't think it's a coincidence two ice-connected houses would behave without influencing each other.

Well, Tremolo and the Azath semi-destroyed by Icarium are to be found on roughly the same continent..

Why at all would the azath take into account artificial distinctions of land?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Morgoth said:

Well, Tremolo and the Azath semi-destroyed by Icarium are to be found on roughly the same continent..

Why at all would the azath take into account artificial distinctions of land?

Tremorlor and the Odhanhouse are not verified to have existed at the same time (I think). Quite possible Tremorlor was only created after Icarium destroyed the Odhanhouse - which took place at an unknown time in the past, which must be considerable.

The distinctions of land are not necessarily artificial or arbitrary in Malaz-world. Lether was distinct. Assail is distinct from other landmasses, as are Korelri and Jacuruku. Seven Cities has a distinct identity, why not have Azath's rationed between each place.

[Folken]

The conversation in question is one between Dancer and Mappo. Where Dancer brings up his reasoning behind a host of elements. Such as time being its own element or is it just an aspect of light and thus not really its own element. yada yada. The conversation can be found starting towards the end of Pg 444 Hardback

[Tiger_sword]

Another interesting coversation is what the little kid at the first throne (can't remember his name, has only one eye, Panek?) says to Cotillon about all the creatures being prisoners. It also seams that there is a definate link between the azath and the shadow realm especially the deadhouse in malaz city (NoK readers will know the intimate connection) what if the prisoners of the azath have their 'shadows' manifest in the shadow realm, we have seen it before with the degorath meaning that every prisoner could be a prisoner of the azath including the three dragons that Cotillon talked to and potentially Edgewalker

[Morgoth]

potsherds said:

I think that what Morgoth was meaning, is that, seeing that SE is an archaeologist and such, he wouldn't decide to give each continent one and only one Azath because continental landmasses have nothign to do with any real distinctions of Wu itself, either magically, or when speaking of tectonic plates. Think India. Anywho, trying to forge connections between cultural identities and divisions in Wu magics doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And Seven Cities is only a region on a larger continent.

Exactly

[Wry]

Maknavox said:

A new crazy theory!!!

The azath/holds/wanderers/houses give people places to draw magic from.

...

Actually i was thinking something similar.

Ok so it goes from wandering -> holds -> houses, right?

Wandering implies individualsism, not building anything solid or lasting - which would fit in with the sormo comment about magic coming from within - Everyones power source was limited to what they had themselves. This would be the time of the elder gods becomeing "gods" rather tham just elemental forces- they were suddenly an external source of powers that people could tap into. People start to worship these powerful beings, are incouraged to, pooling power that can then be tapped into by individuals.

This leads to... Holds.
Holds makes me think of people coming together out of a need for protection/defence rather than a sense of commuinity. Groups of people worhiping, pooling power, but in a rough and general way (think of the Ceda and his acolytes burning the edur villages) - it is less organised and less easily accesible, needing ritual and mumbojumbery.
This creates focus for power, instead of it being spread out in millions of individuals its concentrated in the holds/their representitives.

This concentration of power attracts the Azath. Azath are concerned with balance, the negation of one power with another... order. They establish this new balanced order by snapping up powerful beings (who are using hold or individual magic). This then channells the power through the azath houses, bringing about the House type of magic. this more organised type of power is more easily accessed and controlled. make sense?

[madala]

It is common knowledge that after Dancer and Kellanved entered the deadhouse they spent 2 years in a place that was not Wu. Since the Azath seem to encompass all worlds, there is no need for all the "elementals/warrens/etc" to be manifest on any one of the worlds.

[Obdigore]

madala... how do you figure that they left the planet? All I have seen in the books, is that they were not seen anywhere in the Malazan Empire... there are a couple other continents....

Also, does an azath get stronger the more (and stronger) creatures it holds?