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I don't understand why people think Scabby is Edgewalker. The only concrete connection put forward is that both are related to Shadow, and are both "trapped".
But Edgewalker is not a Tiste Edur, he seems to be an older entity (the strong implication and consensus here being that he is an Elemental, whatever that may be).
Although Scabby's punishment is unknown, I doubt it takes the form of being forced to wander Shadow eternally - it's very important to note that the Shadow Realm - ie Meanas/Rashan - did not exist (at least in its current form) when Kilmandaros laid the smackdown on Scabby.
I also think that after brutally executing Eleint Scabby (the mailed fist to the dragon skull), it's highly unlikely his spirit or soul or whatever was then given a new corporeal form (for example that of Edgewalker) and allowed to wander a realm in peace. Scabby earned a greater punishment than that.
Edgewalker hints at deeper knowledge of many things, whereas Scabby was clearly ignorant of the world (as we saw in MT prologue, he did not strike me as a big thinker, and he was totally unprepared for the dangers of the new world). Though of course Scabby has had a long long time to catch up on affairs, I think the nature of his punishment would preclude this.
Plus, Edgewalker is very powerful - Cotillion thinks to himself that he would've gladly killed Edgewalker, had he thought himself capable of it, but he knew he was not. I don't think Scabby is that outright powerful, especially after the length of his imprisonment.
It still makes vastly more sense (to me) that Scabby would be the dormant "presence" on Drift Avalii that Andarist warned Cutter about, a presence that Andarist seemed to fear to awaken. Drift Avalii also holds the true Throne of Shadow - the seat of power of the Tiste Edur and the broken realm of Kurald Emurlahn. It seems natural that the people who placed that Throne there (and it must have been placed there, since it would presumably have been in KE pre-sundering) for safekeeping would also hold the spirit of Scabandari there - the last person to sit the Throne.
I think Drift Avalii is a KCCM artefact (a mobile floating rock island is very reminiscent of the sky keeps), so it would be contemporary with Scabby's imprisonment. And the Elder Gods may well have placed the Shadow Throne and Scabby's spirit in the care of Rake and his Andii, perhaps as amends for denying Anomander his vengeance over the betrayal of Silchas Ruin. (Drift Avalii was known as a Tiste Andii settlement, if I remember the discussion of the Silanda's origins correctly, and of course we saw Andarist and his group there).
This also ties into the idea of Andarist and Scabandari having a past history - Scabby thought smugly that he had been responsible for Andarist's grief, the grief that led him to renounce his draconean blood. Perhaps Andarist found out about that somehow, and was moved to become the guardian of the island that harboured Scabby's soul.
So, Scabandari Bloodeye is not Edgewalker - I believe there is further evidence in NoK to back this up - and he is most likely (in my opinion) to be the mysterious presence on the island of Drift Avalii.
This started out as a reply to an Edgewalker thread, before it got too long, so take a look at it too:
http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...97042#post97042
Thanks for reading - I realise there are plenty of threads out there about Scabby, but very few people seem to back the Drift Avalii idea, I think because it was just one easily forgettable throwaway line. But that's the kind of hint SE likes to drop on us.
Where is Scabandari Bloodeye?
#1
Dolorous Menhir 
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Posted 06 July 2006 - 05:39 PM
#2
Ivan the terrible
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Posted 06 July 2006 - 06:41 PM
Nice! Scabby as the mysterious presence, intersting i can't think of why not, but i just don't think we have been introduced to scabby yet.
But Is this presence in the throne room perhaps responsable for warning paran about Rhulad in MOI. I think it said "save us'. Originally i thought maybe it was referring to the world or something vague. But it makes sense that scabby would want to save himself and the throne with his mortal children from the crippled god. If that fits it is a good theory. And puts Scabby in a good light
But Is this presence in the throne room perhaps responsable for warning paran about Rhulad in MOI. I think it said "save us'. Originally i thought maybe it was referring to the world or something vague. But it makes sense that scabby would want to save himself and the throne with his mortal children from the crippled god. If that fits it is a good theory. And puts Scabby in a good light
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Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 06 July 2006 - 06:47 PM
Ivan the terrible said:
But Is this presence in the throne room perhaps responsable for warning paran about Rhulad in MOI. I think it said "save us'. Originally i thought maybe it was referring to the world or something vague. But it makes sense that scabby would want to save himself and the throne with his mortal children from the crippled god. If that fits it is a good theory. And puts Scabby in a good light
What point are you referring to here? I remember K'rul & Lady Envy talking about a Mortal Sword in distant lands who had died a hundred deaths, who must've been Rhulad, but Paran wasn't there. And don't think Paran has been to Drift Avalii...so I'm confused.
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Illuyankas
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Posted 06 July 2006 - 07:00 PM
When Paran was wandering through the Deck of Holds in MOI, he ended up on Drift Avalii, in front of the Throne of Shadow. The shadows on it spoke to him, calling him 'Hound/Not-Hound' and wailing about the 'Emperor of Midnight Tides' (also calling him 'Betrayer'), the first mention of Rhulad in the series. Always liked that bit.
But, if Scabby was asleep/dormant, then he couldn't have spoken to Paran, so it probably wasn't him.
EDIT: Pretty sure it's during his search for Rake through the Holds, for an inbook reference.
But, if Scabby was asleep/dormant, then he couldn't have spoken to Paran, so it probably wasn't him.
EDIT: Pretty sure it's during his search for Rake through the Holds, for an inbook reference.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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Ivan the terrible
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Posted 06 July 2006 - 07:30 PM
Yup that is what i am talking bout. As to dormant Scabby, sure but i was more thinking Andarist is mistaking and Scabby is trapped not sleeping
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Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 06 July 2006 - 11:07 PM
Hmm, that bit has totally slipped my mind. Reread time.
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Illuyankas
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Posted 06 July 2006 - 11:10 PM
Dolorous Menhir said:
Hmm, that bit has totally slipped my mind. Reread time.
Never a bad thing.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
#9 Guest_Angel_*
Posted 07 July 2006 - 06:21 AM
Hey all, I think its hard to say where Scabby is atm, the clues that have been given- and it really is like solving a jigsaw, is that Scabby's corporeal body is dead, he has had his head smacked in by Kilamandros. But his soul is living on somewhere in torment. I guess that is why there is so much specualtion, then again, its an Erikson book, so who isn't speculating 
Its why I read them.
Anyway, back to the point. Firstly, Scabby can't be Edgewalker in my opinion. The style of talking that they use is completely different and as was mentioned, Scabby was arrogant and naive, while Edgy is worldly and knowledgable. Imho, there is no way that Scabby is an elder god either as he is not, 'an elemental force.'
Off this point slightly, the conversation style, as was mentioned in the Edgewalker thread, is very similiar to that of Draconus. What got me confused were the several conversations about, and correct me if Im wrong, dragon's casting shadows into the shadow realm. Isn't it entirely possible that the Edgewalker is the shadow of Draconus, dead but not dead and wandering shadow. I thought that was what was meant by many shadows being cast into the realm of shadow... overworld and underworld. The entire scene juxtaposes that of the Paran/Draconus scene in the Rake's sword. The way that Draconus appears, and wanders along talking to Paran/ Cottilion, directing their thoughts and leading them to a risky action- Paran sending the hounds through the gate and Cot speaking to Dragons, to me they seem like complete reflections of each other. Therefore, if I were inclined to speculate on the nature of Edgewalker, I would say that he is somehow linked to Draconus, rather then Scabandari.
One other point I found interesting was that Edgy interupts the conversation with or speaks on three occasions. Two of these are points of great interest for the readers. The first is the discussion between Cot and the Dragon's on whether Ammanas is sitting on the right thrown, as it isn't even in this portion of Emurlahn.
"You believe Ammanas is sitting on the wrong Shadow Thrown."
"The true thrown is not even in this fragmant os Emurlahn."
Cotillion crossed his arms and smiled. 'And is Ammanas?'
The dragons said nothing and he sensed with great satisfaction their sudden disquiet.
'That, Cotillion,' said Edgewalker behind him, 'is a curious distinction. Or are you simply being disingenious?'
okay, so that is the first words that Edgy has in the conversation. For me, he is commenting on a key moment in the narrative. Ill skip to the third one, because the second is the clincher for me. So the third point that Edgy interupts is about a discussion on the Chained God.
'And is the Crippled God and Elder...'
'Why?' Edgewalker asked.
'If he is,' Cotillion said, 'then another question follows. How does one kill and elemental force?'
'You would shatter the balance?'...
Thats the third interuption that Edgy makes, and again, it is on a matter of key importance. The second is the most interesting. For two reasons, as you will see.
Cotillion shrugged. ' I was asking about the Soletaken. Scabandari, Anomandaris, Osserc, Olar Ethil, Draconus -'
Edgewalker spoke behind him: 'Cotillion, surely you have surmised by now that these three dragons sought the Shadow Thrown for honourable reasons?'
Okay, theres a few points that you can take away from this. Firstly, he interupts directly after the name of Draconus. Obvious? Yes, perhaps too obvious. Secondly, Edgy's question deliberately diverts Cot away from his line of questioning, and thus perhaps, Edgys true identity which he would want to protect. Thirdly, in the scheme of the conversation and with Edgy only interupting or commenting on key issues- then this must also follow that same pattern and be a key issue. Why, because he is Draconus, or the shadow of him. And thus he diverts Cot's questioning.
Just on a side note, Dolorous, It doesn't say that Cotillion is afraid of Edgewalker. The quote on page 47 of TBH says " Usurper. I'd have long since killed this bastard if he wasn't already dead. Long Since." There is no hint that he is afraid of him- wary perhaps because he is an unknown entity,but Cot's thoughts show no sign of fear. There are hints that Cot is wary, such as Edgy standing 'too close for comfort'
Its why I read them.Anyway, back to the point. Firstly, Scabby can't be Edgewalker in my opinion. The style of talking that they use is completely different and as was mentioned, Scabby was arrogant and naive, while Edgy is worldly and knowledgable. Imho, there is no way that Scabby is an elder god either as he is not, 'an elemental force.'
Off this point slightly, the conversation style, as was mentioned in the Edgewalker thread, is very similiar to that of Draconus. What got me confused were the several conversations about, and correct me if Im wrong, dragon's casting shadows into the shadow realm. Isn't it entirely possible that the Edgewalker is the shadow of Draconus, dead but not dead and wandering shadow. I thought that was what was meant by many shadows being cast into the realm of shadow... overworld and underworld. The entire scene juxtaposes that of the Paran/Draconus scene in the Rake's sword. The way that Draconus appears, and wanders along talking to Paran/ Cottilion, directing their thoughts and leading them to a risky action- Paran sending the hounds through the gate and Cot speaking to Dragons, to me they seem like complete reflections of each other. Therefore, if I were inclined to speculate on the nature of Edgewalker, I would say that he is somehow linked to Draconus, rather then Scabandari.
One other point I found interesting was that Edgy interupts the conversation with or speaks on three occasions. Two of these are points of great interest for the readers. The first is the discussion between Cot and the Dragon's on whether Ammanas is sitting on the right thrown, as it isn't even in this portion of Emurlahn.
"You believe Ammanas is sitting on the wrong Shadow Thrown."
"The true thrown is not even in this fragmant os Emurlahn."
Cotillion crossed his arms and smiled. 'And is Ammanas?'
The dragons said nothing and he sensed with great satisfaction their sudden disquiet.
'That, Cotillion,' said Edgewalker behind him, 'is a curious distinction. Or are you simply being disingenious?'
okay, so that is the first words that Edgy has in the conversation. For me, he is commenting on a key moment in the narrative. Ill skip to the third one, because the second is the clincher for me. So the third point that Edgy interupts is about a discussion on the Chained God.
'And is the Crippled God and Elder...'
'Why?' Edgewalker asked.
'If he is,' Cotillion said, 'then another question follows. How does one kill and elemental force?'
'You would shatter the balance?'...
Thats the third interuption that Edgy makes, and again, it is on a matter of key importance. The second is the most interesting. For two reasons, as you will see.
Cotillion shrugged. ' I was asking about the Soletaken. Scabandari, Anomandaris, Osserc, Olar Ethil, Draconus -'
Edgewalker spoke behind him: 'Cotillion, surely you have surmised by now that these three dragons sought the Shadow Thrown for honourable reasons?'
Okay, theres a few points that you can take away from this. Firstly, he interupts directly after the name of Draconus. Obvious? Yes, perhaps too obvious. Secondly, Edgy's question deliberately diverts Cot away from his line of questioning, and thus perhaps, Edgys true identity which he would want to protect. Thirdly, in the scheme of the conversation and with Edgy only interupting or commenting on key issues- then this must also follow that same pattern and be a key issue. Why, because he is Draconus, or the shadow of him. And thus he diverts Cot's questioning.
Just on a side note, Dolorous, It doesn't say that Cotillion is afraid of Edgewalker. The quote on page 47 of TBH says " Usurper. I'd have long since killed this bastard if he wasn't already dead. Long Since." There is no hint that he is afraid of him- wary perhaps because he is an unknown entity,but Cot's thoughts show no sign of fear. There are hints that Cot is wary, such as Edgy standing 'too close for comfort'
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Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 07:35 AM
I didn't say Cotillion was afraid of Edgewalker. I said that Cotillion would have gladly killed him to get him out the way, but he knew he could never do so. Perhaps I am remembering that wrong, but I didn't talk about fear.
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 10:04 AM
The theory of edgy being the shadow of draconus is an intriguing one.. I think the fact that edgewalker seems undead counts against it, but at the same time, Draconus is also dead in a fashion, so it might not be so strange for his shadow to take the shape of an undead..
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#14
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 11:20 AM
Good point.. I would assume it was always the plan to chain the victims of the sword to the wagon within it, so then when draconus altered its.. finality.. perhaps he did make it so he would be given a bit more freedom.
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#15
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 12:17 PM
I like this theory, too.
The only little thing that troubles me is, that in MoI Nightchill states more or less directly to Ganoes that Paran's visit in Dragnipur was an unique occasion for Draconus to communicate with the outside. If EW=Draconus (or some avatar, shadow, etc) than other ways to influence the world would be available for Draconus. But that's just some small thingy, after all. Nightchill could have not known, or she simply lied.
Next question i'd like to ask: if EW is linked to Draconus, are the three dragons Cot speaks to the shadows of the Dragons that Draconus mentions to Paran (in GotM, i think) who are, like Draconus, imprisoned in Dragnipur?
(i think the lines were, that paran asked if the hounds could break the chains, and Draconus answers that no one was, and that there were dragons around)
The only little thing that troubles me is, that in MoI Nightchill states more or less directly to Ganoes that Paran's visit in Dragnipur was an unique occasion for Draconus to communicate with the outside. If EW=Draconus (or some avatar, shadow, etc) than other ways to influence the world would be available for Draconus. But that's just some small thingy, after all. Nightchill could have not known, or she simply lied.
Next question i'd like to ask: if EW is linked to Draconus, are the three dragons Cot speaks to the shadows of the Dragons that Draconus mentions to Paran (in GotM, i think) who are, like Draconus, imprisoned in Dragnipur?
(i think the lines were, that paran asked if the hounds could break the chains, and Draconus answers that no one was, and that there were dragons around)
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 12:56 PM
Dinivan said:
Next question i'd like to ask: if EW is linked to Draconus, are the three dragons Cot speaks to the shadows of the Dragons that Draconus mentions to Paran (in GotM, i think) who are, like Draconus, imprisoned in Dragnipur?
That would seem logical, imho - if the EW/Draconus link is valid.
#17 Guest_Angel_*
Posted 07 July 2006 - 01:09 PM
[QUOTE=Dinivan]I like this theory, too.
The only little thing that troubles me is, that in MoI Nightchill states more or less directly to Ganoes that Paran's visit in Dragnipur was an unique occasion for Draconus to communicate with the outside. If EW=Draconus (or some avatar, shadow, etc) than other ways to influence the world would be available for Draconus. But that's just some small thingy, after all. Nightchill could have not known, or she simply lied.
Next question i'd like to ask: if EW is linked to Draconus, are the three dragons Cot speaks to the shadows of the Dragons that Draconus mentions to Paran (in GotM, i think) who are, like Draconus, imprisoned in Dragnipur?
[QUOTE]
First thing I'd like to suggest if that if the creatures are shadows of each other, does that necessarily mean that they are the same person/creature? It stands to reason that the Shadows while being the same, are different from the actual Draconus who is imprisoned in the sword. If the theory that Draconus is Edgy is correct, then they would definitely have to be. A shadow is connected to the original, but is not the same- that was the impression that I recieved.
I think the second question is extremely valid. What is the nature of these shadows. We know that Rake nearly kills the three dragons. Does this mean that they are imprisoned in the sword? Thats hard to answer, but you could speculate that it is. Thus they are bound to shadow. However, this does not account for differences between their bindings and that of Draconus, unless this is due to the alteration? Remembering that the dragons are bound to the earth while Edgewalker is free to move around. Hmm, anyone else want to speculate? Imho, their are too many similarities between Draconus and Edgewalker for the idea to be dismissed, especially the way in which the passages containing Edgewalker are set up.
So far we know that Edgewalker is dead, as is Draconus. However, both are still alive in some form.
Edgy calls himself a 'primal force' as was Draconus.
He wanders shadow, as does Draconus endlessly wanders/walks in the sword.
He is extremely knowledgeable and has the worldly manner and chatty style shared by Draconus.
His knowledge of Dragons suggests an intimate understanding of them. Combined with this is his knowledge of the chained God, the thrown of Shadow, the sundering and all these other nice details that only someone who is in a position of power/knowledge would know.
Any other similarities?
@ Dolorous. Sorry, the fear bit was my take on what you said. If you don't believe that you can beat someone, then surelyyou fear them in some way? Well, that was the impression that I took from your post- and combined with the way that Cot was on edge the whole time and the manner in which the hounds were behaving, led me to the conclusion that he was wary of Edgewalker. But Cot himself states that it was the fact Edgy was dead that meant he wouldn't kill him. How do you kill a dead thing? Dispel would be a better idea.
The only little thing that troubles me is, that in MoI Nightchill states more or less directly to Ganoes that Paran's visit in Dragnipur was an unique occasion for Draconus to communicate with the outside. If EW=Draconus (or some avatar, shadow, etc) than other ways to influence the world would be available for Draconus. But that's just some small thingy, after all. Nightchill could have not known, or she simply lied.
Next question i'd like to ask: if EW is linked to Draconus, are the three dragons Cot speaks to the shadows of the Dragons that Draconus mentions to Paran (in GotM, i think) who are, like Draconus, imprisoned in Dragnipur?
[QUOTE]
First thing I'd like to suggest if that if the creatures are shadows of each other, does that necessarily mean that they are the same person/creature? It stands to reason that the Shadows while being the same, are different from the actual Draconus who is imprisoned in the sword. If the theory that Draconus is Edgy is correct, then they would definitely have to be. A shadow is connected to the original, but is not the same- that was the impression that I recieved.
I think the second question is extremely valid. What is the nature of these shadows. We know that Rake nearly kills the three dragons. Does this mean that they are imprisoned in the sword? Thats hard to answer, but you could speculate that it is. Thus they are bound to shadow. However, this does not account for differences between their bindings and that of Draconus, unless this is due to the alteration? Remembering that the dragons are bound to the earth while Edgewalker is free to move around. Hmm, anyone else want to speculate? Imho, their are too many similarities between Draconus and Edgewalker for the idea to be dismissed, especially the way in which the passages containing Edgewalker are set up.
So far we know that Edgewalker is dead, as is Draconus. However, both are still alive in some form.
Edgy calls himself a 'primal force' as was Draconus.
He wanders shadow, as does Draconus endlessly wanders/walks in the sword.
He is extremely knowledgeable and has the worldly manner and chatty style shared by Draconus.
His knowledge of Dragons suggests an intimate understanding of them. Combined with this is his knowledge of the chained God, the thrown of Shadow, the sundering and all these other nice details that only someone who is in a position of power/knowledge would know.
Any other similarities?
@ Dolorous. Sorry, the fear bit was my take on what you said. If you don't believe that you can beat someone, then surelyyou fear them in some way? Well, that was the impression that I took from your post- and combined with the way that Cot was on edge the whole time and the manner in which the hounds were behaving, led me to the conclusion that he was wary of Edgewalker. But Cot himself states that it was the fact Edgy was dead that meant he wouldn't kill him. How do you kill a dead thing? Dispel would be a better idea.
#18
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 01:17 PM
I do not think the three dragons reside within dragnipur.. To be perfectly honest, I doubt that any other creature but -if the theroy holds true- Draconus can have any sort of presence outside of the sword. MY impression of the curious effect of the shadow warren is that all other, or most other warrens cast a shadow into shadow so to speak.. The realm within dragnipur is surely not a warren though, is it?
Also, the way the dragons were bound.. It didn't seem typical of dragnipur the way they were chained within a circle like that.. Oh, btb, at the logical point of the dragons imprissonment, Rake did not yet have dragnipur in his possession..
Also, the way the dragons were bound.. It didn't seem typical of dragnipur the way they were chained within a circle like that.. Oh, btb, at the logical point of the dragons imprissonment, Rake did not yet have dragnipur in his possession..
Take good care to keep relations civil
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#19
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 07 July 2006 - 01:36 PM
Well, do we have any guide to how long Edgewalker has been occupying Shadow in his present form? If it's longer than Draconus has been imprisoned (ie before the time of Kallor, 120000 years before series, when Draconus last confirmed active), then Edgewalker is not Draconus. No such evidence springs to mind though.
Nightchill tells Paran that Draconus has been cut off from the outside for the duration of his imprisonment, and that his few words to Paran have been the only time he was able to influence the outside world (but then how can he contact Nightchill?). That rules out EW=Draconus as far as I'm concerned.
But if the theory that becoming EW was Draconus' way of avoiding his future imprisonment in Dragnipur is true, then you can't extend that to the dragons. Only he would get the special treatment, the ability to manifest in Shadow, not others imprisoned in the sword. Plus I think the three dragons were actually chained there, in Shadow, they were not shadows of themselves.
Also, I think Draconus would've thought of a better get out clause than trapping himself in Shadow for the duration, a realm and aspect he has no other known association with.
Nightchill tells Paran that Draconus has been cut off from the outside for the duration of his imprisonment, and that his few words to Paran have been the only time he was able to influence the outside world (but then how can he contact Nightchill?). That rules out EW=Draconus as far as I'm concerned.
But if the theory that becoming EW was Draconus' way of avoiding his future imprisonment in Dragnipur is true, then you can't extend that to the dragons. Only he would get the special treatment, the ability to manifest in Shadow, not others imprisoned in the sword. Plus I think the three dragons were actually chained there, in Shadow, they were not shadows of themselves.
Also, I think Draconus would've thought of a better get out clause than trapping himself in Shadow for the duration, a realm and aspect he has no other known association with.
