[Agraba]

According to Baruk, she banged both Osserc and Scabandari. Of course, that doesn't explain why Anomander/Andarist/Ruin have eleint blood. Maybe MD is an eleint, but then, how could she beget human-like children on her own? Is she mixed or something? It seems she wasn't a beget of anything, so how could she be pure?

Why include the CG anyways? Maybe Cotillion hinted that he's one of the Elder Gods. So maybe he's where the human-like stature came from. Maybe, since Tiam's such a slut, she had sex with him and begot Mother Dark. But in that case, Tiam would have had sex with two of her grandchildren.

Of course, it could be that Anomander Rake went back in time to screw the Eres'al and become his own grandfather. But then Tiam had sex with him, and they begot K'rul, who came before Anomander Rake because his sperm can travel back in time. And K'rul happens to be Tiam's grandfather, but also her grandson, because she's Rake's Grandmother, but Mother Dark's daughter at the same time, making her her own grandmother, and Rake's sister, but Osserc's cousin, and lover (and grandmother). Of course, since the Eres'al had sex with Rake and they begot his own grandmother, that makes her Tiam's mother, and Rake and Osserc's great grandmother, but also Rake's lover, and Mother Dark's grandmother, also making her Rake's great grandmother, grandmother, and lover.

[Dark Mac]

IIRC, Tiam disappeared before the CG came to Wu. There's no connection between the two.

I doubt there's a connection between MD and either of the two. MD's just been sleeping in her Wagon for the last while, so far as we know, unless she's actually Ardata. And even then, I doubt there's a connection. Why would there be?

[Hume]

remember Korlat also has the Eleint blood in her and I'd say Olar Ethil does as well. The impression I got was that the Soletaken Eleint actually drink the blood of Tiam not mate with her...

[Morgoth]

wouldn't drinking blood and mating be a bit too goodkind-ish?

[Abyss]

Tiam is, it appears, an Elder god. She's one of the 'primal' beings who MD gave birth to without a mate.

Depending on whose version you believe, this happened BEFORE MD churned out the Andii, specifically Rake, Ruin and 'Rist, and the subsequent race.

Father Light was either an elemental force or an EG. Mommy D got it on with him, and so you get the Edur. And Scabby.

Father Light sheboings SOMEONE, or maybe he does whatever MD did to get the Andii, and you get the Liosan.

But one way or the other, you have EGs and 'elder' Tiste running around at the same time. And, y'know, maybe some drinking, some partying, someone is feeling experimental, and next thing you know Rake, Ossi and Scabby have all sheboinged Tiam at some point.

Now Tiam has a funny tendency. Rather than bask in the afterglow and maybe just cuddle, she dies. And gives birth. Not necessarily in that order.
Either way, it's an obstetric nightmare. But one way or the other, there's bloodshed involved, and that means that if you're a nice, generous sort like Rake, you invite some friends/family over and everyone gets to become draconic.

Clearly Ossi and Scabby weren't so community-minded, the selfish jerks.

And then all kinds of incestuous sheboinging follows, a la Sheltana and Krul, etc.

BUt my overall point (yes, i had one) is that there are at least two, possibly sixor more, creation myths at work here. Plus warrens mess with time. So we don't have a clear picture of anything other than that sex occured, and maybe some underage blood drinking.

- Abyss, nostalgic for those high school parties now.

[Midnight]

I think the relationship between the CG and Tiam is that he is the reason she might not rise again. He definetly seems to be attacking the warrens and his Tiste Edur did kill Sorrit.

[Dark Mac]

MD gave birth to the Elder Gods? Say what? I thought they were around at the same time as she was, created by the same forces as her.

[Illuyankas]

Well, we know that Rake, Scabby and Osserc had to kill Tiam via blood-drinking before they could, to put it politely, 'bone her like a big scaled pony', as Tiam has no Soletaken form as a humanoid. And Sandalath described Korlat and Rake drinking Tiam's blood out of a gaping neckwound in MT.

So, drink blood - Soletaken, have sex - Soletaken children. With Tiam dying all the time. No wonder she's trying to stay dead.


And MD made the Andii by herself, including Rake Ruin and Darist, and afterwards FL then made the Liosan and Osserc by himself. Assuming FL is an Elder/elemental force, and not made after R/R/D. Then, FL and MD together made the Edur and Scabby, which pushed the Andii over the edge (along with Scabby's machinations). Incidentally, if MD made all the Elders, then she had 'sex' with her son to make the Edur. Always with the incest in this series, isn't it?

[Abyss]

I'm blanking on the exact quote, pretty sure it was Gothos to Mael in the MT prologue, something like...

"Foolish of Scabface to think this world's gods would not oppose him. And contrary to what Anomander might think, Mother Dark's first children were not Tiste Andii. The wanker."

Or something like that.

- Abyss, prodigal son.

[Illuyankas]

I left that part out due to apathy.

'MD created the Elder Gods, including FL (if he is one). THEN she made R/D/R and the Andii etc etc.'

Happy?

[Dolorous Menhir]

Midnight said:

I think the relationship between the CG and Tiam is that he is the reason she might not rise again. He definetly seems to be attacking the warrens and his Tiste Edur did kill Sorrit.

If Scabby killed Sorrit, he did it a long long time before the Fall of the CG. They were not "the CG's Edur" at that point, they were Scabby's. The CG couldn't have had anything to do with it.

[Morgoth]

As far as I've understood it, MD is the... creator of SE's universe, and so it would only be logical for her to also be the creator of the elder gods

[Abyss]

Illuyankas said:

I left that part out due to apathy.

'MD created the Elder Gods, including FL (if he is one). THEN she made R/D/R and the Andii etc etc.'

Happy?

I wet myself in glee.

But i was actually replying to Dark Mac.

- Abyss, has to go change now.

[Midnight]

Dolorous Menhir said:

If Scabby killed Sorrit, he did it a long long time before the Fall of the CG. They were not "the CG's Edur" at that point, they were Scabby's. The CG couldn't have had anything to do with it.

I didn't say Scabandari killed Sorrit. I meant the current Tiste Edur, ruled by Rhulad...they are definetly owned by the CG.

[Illuyankas]

Abyss said:

I wet myself in glee.

But i was actually replying to Dark Mac.

- Abyss, has to go change now.

All is forgiven! Attribute it to my self-importance.

@Midnight - if Rhulad and co. did kill Sorrit, then the body could have recently wandered from Shadow to the OP ritual, shattering it and provoking Ganath to come remake it. We'll have to see how the major 'old' players (K'rul, Rake) react to it.

[Morgoth]

didn't Icarium hint that the murder of sorrit happend long long ago?

[Illuyankas]

I'd rather Ganath broke free from her tomb in a reaction to the ritual being destroyed over sheer chance that Paran happened to ride by, personally. But I'll reread that part.

[Folken]

what morgoth said

pg 134 "Long dead, once frozen. now rotting"

[Father Light]

Not sure MD gave rise to krul. if her warren is one half of his heart surely he created darkness. also isn't starvals demelain supposed to be older than kursald galain. also in moi krul is refered to as the eldest of all.

chaos was before dark as dark was the first imposition of order on chaos. krul came from chaos and therefore predates mother dark in my ever so humble opinion.