[PannionDude]

My theory on this one is that the Wolves of Winter get to have 2 Mortal Swords, Shield Anvils, etc, because their are two of them. The new allies might refer to themselves as Mortal Sword to Togg & Fanderlay, but I believe they are in fact drawing power from one or the other of them.

It will, if I am correct, be cool to see if the two hosts display the same ever-seperated behavior that the Wolves did till recently.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Mythodikal said:

Or do Togg and Fanderay get to have two, because there are two of them?

Yep, that's the general consensus here - further supporting this idea, between the Grey Swords and the Perish there is each position has one male/one female occupant, which matches nicely with male Togg & female Fanny (ha).

There's no reason to think other gods have multiple Destriants, etc, and in fact I think that T & F are certainly a special case in having more than one.

It's been widely discussed elsewhere though, you should be able to find several threads dealing with this.

[Midnight]

what I dont understand is, if if Togg and Fanderay have only recently taken positions of prominence why have the Perish been around so long? I know that Togg and Fanderay were worshipped before MoI but apparently that was only in the north. Anyone have any ideas?

[Dolorous Menhir]

That's just one of many unresolved timeline issues.

We know that Togg & Fanny still had a priest organisation during their long separation (Rath'Togg, Rath'Fanny in Capustan), but it seems natural to assume that there were no Mortal Swords etc (who are on a different level from vanilla priests) until they assumed the Beast Thrones and began to truly exert their power - I doubt Togg was recruiting Destriants while he wandered Chaos for millenia.

So if that assumption is true - no Destriants & Mortal Swords until assumption of Beast Thrones - then we can't explain the two-year plus existence of the Perish, since the consensus is that no more than a year has passed since the end of MoI and the end of BH, and certainly not as many as two. The Perish may have existed as a band of T&F-worshippers for a long time, but I don't think they would've been able to perform their two-year ritual before the end of MoI.

edit:

the "two people" question pops up a bit down this thread:
http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...ighlight=perish

this one deals with the timeline question:
http://www.malazanempire.com/forums/showth...ighlight=perish

[Dark Mac]

Dolorous Menhir said:

We know that Togg & Fanny still had a priest organisation during their long separation (Rath'Togg, Rath'Fanny in Capustan), but it seems natural to assume that there were no Mortal Swords etc (who are on a different level from vanilla priests) until they assumed the Beast Thrones and began to truly exert their power - I doubt Togg was recruiting Destriants while he wandered Chaos for millenia.

Mael hasn't been at all involved with Wu for a long time, but he still has a Jhistal, and that's the same as a Destriant. Odd as it may seem, the god's presence isn't really required for priests, and the story about the innocent god and its bloodthirsty worshippers really reinforces that.

[Hume]

@ Dark Mac

Where does it say that a Jhistal is the Same as a Destriant ?

[Dinivan]

@ Hume - I think it's somewhere in the glossary of BH

i think priests for gods who aren't there is definitly possible - there's also the example of the whole Rashan & Maenas cult which was active even while the realm was empty (before the ascension of ST&C, i don't count the dogs and demons as gods) So priests are possible without the god. But i'd second Dol'menhir, just out of feeling. I think it's hard to imagine that there is a Destriant (or Mortal sword or espescially Shield Anvil) without a god, as these persons are specially invested with the god's powers or whatever. I imagine that a Shiel anvil needs a god - Itkovian could manage somehow, but no other, I'd believe.

Though the Jhistal argument's still there, though. One can argue, that Mael doesn't do his "god-business", but he's still there and not half-mad or trapped or something similar. Then we might add that we don't really know if Mallik is really a Jhistal but only said he is to add to his reputation a bit glamour (my opinion, just because i don't like him, and i can't believe that bugg would wander around and let someone like Mallick be his Jhistal/destriant)

[Asandir]

Togg -
Mortal Sword - Toc(male)
Shield Anvil - Recruit(female)
Destriant - Sergeant(female)
Came about with return of Togg from the chaos warren

Fanderay-
All Perish
Mortal Sword - (female)
Shield Anvil - (male)
Destriant - (male)...Can't remember their names
The reason they existed was(my own reasoning) because fanderay was in Wu with Lady Envy. They may have sensed her existence, or maybe fanderay subconciously gave them their positions.

[Tiger_sword]

Do you think they know about each other? Or have the same aims/goals or will ever really meet? I can't remember the grey swords saying they were going anywhere but i guess that was quite a while ago now

[Asandir]

I would doubt that they have knowledge of each other. The Perish might have some knowledge of their counterparts but not vice versa.(Perish preparing for something for the past two years.)
I come to this conclusion because Rath Fener didn't recognise a Destriant in his company and Feners boys didn't know Treach was newly ascended until they came across Gruntle.

[fan_83]

err priests and such needs a god to grant their request for power.. remember the imass and liosan talk when they released trull in mt i think

i think the whole meanas and rashan cult exists but the priest draws upon the power of the protector ala lorics demon in KT.. perhaps there were such a protector for meanas and rashan before they got kebabed by st and dancer for st to gain the throne.
just a thought

[Tiger_sword]

i'm pretty sure were gonna see the grey swords again pretty soon and they will play a large role. After all togg and fanderay have been seperated for hundereds of thousands of years i think its no coincidence they found each other now, when they are most needed (combat the force of the CG). Their people will come together it seams against the Tiste Edur for now, the Perish have already begun.