[KeithF]

Did you read Memories of Ice? It's pretty clear there that the Crippled God is not all about helping the workers seize the means of production. The Pannion Domin - the genocidal, cannibalistic empire that recruits or consumes every single person in its territory - is his creation. Also, later on in Midnight Tides, the nasty effects of the Crippled God's gifts to his followers should become obvious.

While the Crippled God is not your bog-standard fantasy Dark Lord who's evil because the plot says so and eats babies for the fun of it - he's more like an abused person who has become an abuser (with serious magical powers, unfortunately), as far as I can tell - he's clearly a negative force in the Malazan world that has to be stopped. Every group/cult champion he creates, by and large, seems to be not only destructive but self-destructive, suggesting he intends to depopulate the world by unleashing destructive forces that will eventually degenerate/die out in their turn.

[zenMichael]

KeithF, on May 12 2009, 08:46 PM, said:

Did you read Memories of Ice? It's pretty clear there that the Crippled God is not all about helping the workers seize the means of production. The Pannion Domin - the genocidal, cannibalistic empire that recruits or consumes every single person in its territory - is his creation.

While I'm not DISagreeing with you, I'm seriously confused here. I just finished a RE-read of MoI like 2 weeks ago, and I didn't get at all that the CG made the Domin. I thought the Seer (who seemed far more like you described the CG, the abused who had become the abuser) had created the Domin because his torment in the rift (or rend or whatever it's called, at Morn) had essentially driven him crazy? I think I have two big problems. 1. My memory SUCKS. 2. I get very caught up in the human stories and practically ignore the larger bits being thrown at me (I had tears in my eyes for most of the last 100 pages of MoI, but damned if I could tell you why the Seer didn't just take some prisoners back to Morn, throw them in & get his sister out; nor, apaprently, did I realize that the CG was behind the Pannion.) I remember QB and the others talking a lot about how the PD was just a feint by a larger power, and so I assumed the CG had somehow convinced the PD to come to Genebackis, maybe, but I apparently missed that he was responsible for them.

This post has been edited by zenMichael: 13 May 2009 - 03:41 AM

[HoosierDaddy]

Pannion was being gifted power by the C.G. His poisoning of the warrens emanated from the Domin, and allowed Pannion to create the vultures of doom and other things.

[D'rek]

zenMichael, on May 12 2009, 05:44 PM, said:

To get back to an earlier point made in this thread ....

IS the CG "evil"? I'm only about 150 pp into MT, so maybe stuff happens later that totally makes him obviously bad bad BAD, OR maybe it's possible that I'm completely missing some of the things he's done because keeping track of who's pulling whose strings is mind-blowing, even on a re-read, but one of the things I THOUGHT I was liking so far (tho maybe I'm wrong) is that the CG seemed very much not a "bad guy" bad guy. I like the fact that he seems to be choosing people for his champions who don't really give a damn about him or his agenda (Karsa specifically), and seems to prefer scarred, broken and beaten folk (even messing up that guy in MoI felt more like 'I want you to be like me!' than evil/cruelty, at least to me).

I'm asking this not because I think everyone who believes the CG is evil is stupid, but b/c I'm really wondering if I missed something. I kinda liked the guy because he seems to have just been dealt an unlucky hand and is kind of pro-revolution simply because anything must be better than what he's got. But I could be wrong (I feel so lost on so much of this stuff; at times I feel like I'm reading a sociology textbook rather than fiction).

as with every character in the malazan world, he is not good and he is not evil. He has his own motives and acts because of those motives. Some people dislike his actions, others like his actions. Every character and every reader can decide for themselves how he stacks up on the scales.

[Giovani]

potsherds, on 07 May 2006 - 01:55 AM, said:

I don't really know where else to post this, so I am posting it here, since its sorta' on topic. I'm a couple chapters until the end of MT.

Am I being overly sensitive, or does the Letherii society seem a caricature of the U.S.? The arrogance and the impetuous certainty in their own destiny and righteousness, the obsession with money, possessions, and debt.
There are specific paragraphs (one in particular that is spoken by Tehol to Rissarh, I think) that would seem to fit nicely into many a commentary on the actions of the U.S. in the world today.
Not to say that I don't agree mostly with Erikson. I'm not thrilled about pretty much everything the U.S. has done since that moron and his lackeys took office. And our general attitudes towards other countries, and our ignorance thereof is pathetic. But still... is Erikson being...dare I say it...preachy?

::hoping to not get flamed::

(And I was so looking to posting my own insulting comments on Goodkind, but damn, if Erikson preaches, then I have to be careful not to be hypocritical.)

I find this paragraph quite striking in this regard:

‘Yes, if you could call it that. We have a talent for disguising greed under the cloak of freedom. As for past acts of depravity, we prefer to ignore those. Progress, after all, means to look ever forward, and whatever we have trampled in our wake is best forgotten.’ Sendac, in the The Midnight Tides.

Diguising greed in under the cloak of freedom fits perfectly in US foreign policy. Freedom, human rights, and now the empty and vague threath of "terrorism" were, and still are, justifications by the US to advance their economic and imperialistic goals around the world. They also serve to trick its population into believing its bullying and submission of other nations and cultural systems is "just", and thus secure support of the masses. The average american sits proudly on the back of his tank on some foreign impoverished land and does whathever he's told, because he believes he's serving freedom and progress, when it's anything but. He also looks always forward, and denies or conveniently forgets about the existance of a bloody, imperialistic past.

All in all, the Letherii share many other traits with the US. A money-driven society, where individual profit is the core purpose behind its citizens, on a winer-takes-it-all approach where there no quarter is given to the losers on the economic war. Among western developed economies, only in the US you find the poor masses so deprived of state assistance. Only in the US so high a proportion of the population believes that the state shouldn't get involved with social assistance, and the state should refrain from any income distribution policies. Thus, jungle capistalism prevails and inequality is striking, as in Letheras.

Steven Eriksson already stated that when he created the Letherii he didn't do so to mimic US society. His theme, throughout the book, was inequality. It's curious how, in portraying an unequal society, he came so close to describe the United States.

[worry]

The average American doesn't even own a tank, let alone ride one around foreign lands all day. Some of us (and I do mean some) have jobs you know!

Anyway, I don't think the parallels to the US are coincidental or anything, but I also don't think they're exclusive or so singularly focused by any stretch. If anything, the US is one of numerous examples throughout history of this very human phenomenon, you know? Like if it's deflating the US particularly anywhere, it's in that definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result), if that makes sense. The notion that the US can live up to its rhetoric while still falling back on the same old hierarchical primate behaviors. But I mean that just puts us right there in a long line of tradition, and we aren't alone. Heck, focusing on the Lether=USA angle is itself a sign of that forgetfulness of the past, isn't it?

[NefaraisBredd]

One might also interpret the Letheri as representing the old age and the Malazans/Crippled God as the New age, which is typical archetype in mythology/fantasy.