[Illuyankas]

So why do you have Rhulad and Trull holding two positions each? It doesn't seem clear.

Also, it was only said to be 'plural', it never said 'only two', so more people for each position could work.

[Imperial Historian]

Ah, seem's I've forgotten an important quote which is crucial to my theory, the Ceda's saying that:

"And look - Saviour and Betrayer, they have coalesced. They are one and the same."

I'll look up page references later, unless someone else fancies it, it was a discussion between the Ceda and Brys as I recall, the rest of that passage was fairly relevant to any discussion on the holds.

The suggestion being that the position of Saviour is occupied by the same person, as is the position of Betrayer, coupled with the plurarity of the Empty Hold it would suggest that each position is held by the same two people, but tehre roles switch depending on which side of the contest you are on, Trull and Rhulad being the obvious candidates here.

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Also, it was only said to be 'plural', it never said 'only two', so more people for each position could work.

True, in fact I incline to the belief that the positions in the holds are fairly fluid, the readings often seem to suggest several options, and the readings often seem to be referring to different people each time. The reading owuld seem to change depending on the present alignments of the God's, and the reasons for the reading, as well as giving a general guide to the doings of the God's.

[Illuyankas]

Interesting.

[Imperial Historian]

Personally I don't see it as a Letherii/Edur split, there may be contestants for the empty throne but it's not a human/edur contest in my mind, it's a CG/anti-CG split (the andii spirits for one are neither Edur or Letherii)

Rhulad would seem to be the critical figure in the contest, so his absence from the reading would not make much sense. So I still plum for Rhulad.

Tehol is viable but can not in any sense be considered to be in opposition to Trull, Udinass is even more likely, but again he isn't really in opposition to Trull.

I'd agree with binidas for walker, it seems the most likely, for watcher I'm still torn between brys and tehol...

[Kurt Montandon]

Danyah said:

EH now you're back, what do you think of Onrack as Elder in the Beast Hold?

Myself, I was inclined to think of Tool as Elder, and Olar Ethil (sp.) as Shaman.

Hunter is pretty obviously Trake/Treach - notice he doesn't show up in the second casting, since I suspect his place as a member of the Beast Hold is, or soon will be (depending on the casting as prophecy or not) no longer necessary.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Does anyone buy Gothos as Seer or Shaman of the Beast Hold?

[Asandir]

My thoughts as postes in BH forum

The Eleint Hold/House
Queen Tiam-yet to ressurect
Consort Otatarol Dragon, staked and pissed
Liege Draconus been the obvious choice but there might actually be a Dragon trapped there
Knight Rake, awaiting his reunion with his former sword
Gate Maybe Silchus/ the whole burning rage/payback
Locqui Wyval Setting up edur for big fall-maybe

Lady/Sister Spite/Envy- seperate continents
Blood Drinker Up for interpretation
Path Shaper K'rul

The Empty Hold

Ware the brothers Beddicts. Only ones I can thing of that are bigtime involved-Tehol/Mael, Brys/Guardian plus all the old gods names

The Watchers Guardians of the Azath- Gothos n co or Nameless ones
The Wanderers T'lan imass
The Walkers Malazan Empire
The Saviours Cotillion and Shadowthrone
The Betrayers Edur maybe, broken reflection referring to KE

[Murrin]

A thought I hadn't bothered to consider the implications of before now: The mention of brothers in MT is two-sided, just like the story.
Trull, Fear, Binadas; Tehol, Hull, Brys.
It's hard to know where to place parallels - some seem interchangeable. Looking at the Hold, and taking the logical assumption that the contestants tend towards a Human/Edur duality:

Possible contestants for:
Empty Throne: Rhulad, Shadowthrone?, Kettle?, King Diskanar??
Watchers: Tehol?, ?
Mistresses: Seren Pedac, Mayen?/Uruth?
Wanderers: Hull?, Binadas?
Walkers:
Saviours/Betrayers: Udinaas, Trull, Hull?, Brys?,

[Sir Thursday]

I was thinking that perhaps the watcher is Ahlrada Ahn...based on something you find out in Bonehunters:

Spoiler

Ahlrada Ahn is ashamed of himself for doing nothing when he was present at Trull's shorning. He is also a Bluerose spy, so he is also a watcher in that sense.

Just a thought.

Vox

[Imperial Historian]

The empty throne is by definition empty, so I don't think it needs to be occupied. Looking at the empty throne the beddict and sengar brothers would seem to be intimately entwined in the conflict, but the fact that there are four sengar brothers and only 3 beddict messes up the symmetry somewhat.

I think we're all agreed that:
Mistress= Seren Pedac and Mayen
Walkers=Hull and Binidas

As for the others
Wanderers: broken through the ice and cold darkness comes with its deadly embrace, suggests the tiste andii spirits

Watchers: Fear is the most probable for the Edur, and Tehol and Brys for humanity (theres no necessity for there to be just two occupants)

Saviour/Betrayer is the most controversial one, I still think that this position belongs to Rhulad/Trull as this seems to be the central conflict, but there are other options, Trull is definitely branded a betrayer by the Edur for his actions and shorn, yet in reality he saved them from death by the Ceda's magic, whilst Rhulad is considered to be the saviour of the Edur, yet in reality he has betrayed them.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I'm still holding out for Hood as Wanderer.

[Murrin]

Danyah said:

"The Betrayer stands in the shadow of the Empty Throne.
That's why it's empty."
The Casting of the Tiles
Ceda Parudu Erridict

= What Scabandari Bloodeye did has kept anyone from claiming the Throne of Shadow until now.

@Imperial Historian - The four brothers/three brothers thing: Rhulad is no longer their brother, he is their Emperor. He is outside all that from when he claims the sword.

@Danyah - I like your thinknig on how the positions are filled on the human/Edur, Beddict/Sengar angle.

[Imperial Historian]

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Rhulad didn't betray anyone. Hannan Mosag did. When Rhulad beaches after being killed by Serenity, he says to Whital and SD. "I have no choice". He's a puppet and he doesn't occupy the empty throne, only the Throne in Chains.

Whether his actions are by his own will or nay, his actions themselves betray the edur whilst he is proclaimed as there saviour.

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"The Betrayer stands in the shadow of the Empty Throne.
That's why it's empty."
The Casting of the Tiles
Ceda Parudu Erridict


MT TPB p. 554

added, along with a few other quotes you put up, I see this as the fact that the Empty Throne is empty, because of scabandari the betrayer, rake ensured that the throne of shadow was empty and would remain empty. Or an alternative, anyone who gains the empty throne will be betrayed and lose it.

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Tehol, both betray their kings and rulers to save their people

When did Tehol betray anyone? he did nothing to undermine the letherii during the Edur invasion, so i can't see how he can be seen to have betrayed them.

I'm still not convinced on the strictly linear beddict/sengar, human/edur angle, I think it's a lot more complicated than that, for example Seren Pedac as mistress doesn't make sense unless she's on the same side as Trull, whilst her opposite mayen makes sense on the assumption of her being linked to Rhulad, on the opposing side to Trull. The edur and the humans are not monolithic factions, Hull supports the Edur, Trull opposes the emperor, the conflict is not between Edur and Human, it is a contest for the empty throne, between the followers of the CG and those who would have the throne remain out of his reach.

However the majority seem convinced otherwise, so i'll not belabour the point until I find some convincing evidence...

Oh one interesting idea that popped into my head, the Beddicts and the Sengars are technically linked by blood, Binidas and Hull are blood brothers, and so one could argue that the Sengars and Beddicts are all technically brothers of each other.

On a side track... the Empty Throne, what exactly is it, in many ways it seems to be linked to the throne of shadow, another empty throne, from a warren which has become human aspected, emptied by the actions of a betrayer, Scabandari Bloodeye, but the hold of shadow, or kurald emurlahn seems to exist seperatly, so what exactly do you think the Empty Throne is?