[Dark Mac]

I'm curious: who actually says that the CG is an Elder God? I don't remember anyone specifically mentioning that, especially not someone who would know.

[Urko Crust]

Abyss said:

@Urko - where does Krul say this? or do you mean he knew him before the Chaining, as opposed to the Fall?

- Abyss, conspiracy theorist.

I think it is in GoTM. something like: i knew him before, although what he is now.......
Which implies before the fall
i may be wrong, dont have my copy with me.

[BridgeBurner]

Dark Mac said:

The name of the last book is "The Crippled God". That would be an awfully silly name if the CG was not the main enemy.

Not really. It should work as well if the CG turned out to be pivotal in this conflict.

[Illuyankas]

It's just getting to the point of 'Who manipulates the manipulators?'

At SOME point there has to be ONE entity who isn't being controlled/directed by ANYBODY, else we get an endless cycle of A is controlling B is controlling C is controlling A... It's a bit silly, really.

[Chaos]

As long as its not a "and then the dragon woke up .. and it was all a dream" then i dont mind at all

[Asandir]

Red_orbiT said:

If you say Kruppe... I'll say Whiskeyjack.

The ultimate genius himself. He toppled an economy, inleague with an elder God. He's pulling the wool over everyones eyes. Its got be Tehol.

[Set'alahd Crool]

There is no ultimate bad guy. It's not a good vs evil story. So the CG's intentions are rather unpleasant. They still remind me a little of buddhism, a central tenet of which is that to exist is to suffer so learn to rise above it. Not really "Evil".

As for old vs new, it's strongly hinted at throughout tBH and Heboric tells us this himself - That the war is about getting rid of the elder gods once and for all. But which side is good and which evil? Do the new gods just want to free the world of such bloody and cruel worship as the elder gods require? Uncharacteristically generous of them, don't you think?
Are they just jealously guarding their power and influence from a returning threat?

What of the elder gods? Do they seek a return to power? Are they, as elemental forces, trying to protect balance from power-hungry and reckless younger gods?

What role have the dragons? Or the soletaken dragons? Or the KC? With whom, if anyone, will they ally themselves? Do any of them have an agenda with higher stakes than the gods'?

And mortals. Can't forget them. Each one with his/her own agenda, not many of which could be called "Good".

One ultimate bad guy? Ha!

[Agraba]

Quote

There is no ultimate bad guy. It's not a good vs evil story.

The same can be said for any story ever written. It's usually just the opinion of the writer that one of his/her characters are evil, and the other is good. So the author's feelings are transmitted through his/her writing, and most often, that opinion becomes shared by the readers. So you can still read Lord of the Rings, and sympathize with Sauron, or find ruthlesness in Frodo, but that's unlikely by the way Tolkien portrays them. You can say that the characters are good or bad relative to the author's point of veiw.

And let's face it, Steven Erickson isn't a 100% unbiased writer. He transmits the feeling to us that the Crippled God is malicious, and characters like Paran, or Fiddler, or Icarium are just plain good-hearted.

[Abyss]

Set said:

There is no ultimate bad guy. It's not a good vs evil story. So the CG's intentions are rather unpleasant. They still remind me a little of buddhism, a central tenet of which is that to exist is to suffer so learn to rise above it. ...

Sure, there are points in the series where the lines are less clear, ie: 7C revolution v. Malaz Empire, proud primitive teblor v. encroaching settlers, jagjt who want to be left alone v. imass sick of jaghut tyrants... I would have agreed with you to a point...

...but those poor, victimized, misled Edur, being manipulated by the pain-stricken, misunderstood, unfairly imprisoned CG, have, that we've seen, kicked an unarmed old man to death, massacred a few fishing villages, and spend their leisure time on intercontinental cruises raping letherii slave women until said slaves go insane and die from edur semen poisoning.

That there is some pretty dark shade of grey.

- Abyss, prefers black tie to grey earl.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Abyss said:

...but those poor, victimized, misled Edur, being manipulated by the pain-stricken, misunderstood, unfairly imprisoned CG, have, that we've seen, kicked an unarmed old man to death, massacred a few fishing villages, and spend their leisure time on intercontinental cruises raping letherii slave women until said slaves go insane and die from edur semen poisoning.

Darth Vader did worse things and yet still redeemed himself. The CG didn't choose his current state - if memory serves his enemies in his home realm were vices, so he was probably a nice guy - but he can now choose his future state. Give him time to calm down. I'd be pretty pissed if I were in his position, but sooner or later he'll realise that he is still a particularly pwerful god with great influence across a vast and populace realm. So he's got a nasty cough, I don't think that will have too much of an effect on his major decision/role in the last book. He'll turn out to be the real hero.

[Urko Crust]

I dont think that this series tackles the aspects of good and bad at all. i think it is all about cause and effect:

crippled god crippled > goes mad wants revenge
Rhulad betrayed by udinass > goes madder (slightly insane anyway due to dying) and forces the Edur to commit attrocities
apsalr used by a god > becomes a killing machine and withdraws from humanity
Karsa orlong betrayed by his gods > need i say more?

There is a reason why everyone acts the way they do. and it is not (only) because of there inherent natures

[Illuyankas]

@Set - So, if you were in constant agonising pain that will NEVER END as long as you remain in this realm, and you were faced with an entire pantheon and planet of hostile beings who cannot kill you, send you back, or do anything save restrict your actions and chain you to the surface of Wu, even though the agony of being torn into ragged, bloody chunks and spread over a continent FULLY CONSCIOUS drove you into insanity two hundred millenia before, you would calm down and accept it?

All the CG would need to do to be the hero in the last book, the figure who ends the threat of destroying all our heroes, is stop. Which he isn't going to do.

If he is 'redeemed' at the series' end, I'm not going to be very happy.

[Set'alahd Crool]

He's getting better. His pain is not eternal, it just takes a while to recover from an ordeal such as his. I know. A similar thing happened to me back in '82, and I still can't sit comfortably on a bus. Yet I no longer want to wipe all life from the planet. Give the CG a bit more time. He'll realise what he has and stop focusing on what he doesn't. I'm not saying he'll be charitable and altruistic, but he won't always be so obsessed with suffering. If there ain't no way home for him he'd better make himself a new one, and you don't....y'know, on your own doorstep.

[Dark Mac]

Yeah, that might have been possible...if revenge were the CG's only motivation. The CG only looked in on the Malazan world in the first place to gain more power. He was evil enough that either his invasion force followed after him, or the others in his realm decided it was necessary to send a whole fleet of statues to subdue him. And it's even mentioned directly in MoI that the CG stopped caring about revenge long ago; now all he desires is more power. The only way to make him be nice would be to voluntarily surrender the life of every being on the planet into slavery to him.

[Abyss]

I dunno... death by toxic semen poisoning just doesn't scream redemption-bound to me

But redemption of sorts is a theme in the books - Karsa went from murderer and rapist to his present state. Kel and Cot went from vengeance-bent to saviours of sorts. It's not unheard of.

And we STILL don't know why they didn't just, as Kalam put it, stick a knife in the CG at the last few chainings. So yes, there's more going on than a simple evil overlord plot. But somehow, 'and he lived happily ever after' just doesn't seem to fit.


- Abyss, must find more opportunities to write 'death by toxic semen poisoning'.

[Morgoth]

Dark Mac said:

Yeah, that might have been possible...if revenge were the CG's only motivation. The CG only looked in on the Malazan world in the first place to gain more power. He was evil enough that either his invasion force followed after him, or the others in his realm decided it was necessary to send a whole fleet of statues to subdue him. And it's even mentioned directly in MoI that the CG stopped caring about revenge long ago; now all he desires is more power. The only way to make him be nice would be to voluntarily surrender the life of every being on the planet into slavery to him.

I very much doubt there is any indication at all to be found showing the CG to have been 'evil' before the fall. He was curious, that's all...

Consider, if you wish, the reaction among the worshippers of ST if the same thing happend to him.. I dunno, I think your argument is flawed, especially as we have little to no knowledge as to the reason behind the jolly green's presence

[High Marshal Flit]

KALLOR!!!! He's the reason all this mess w/ the CG started anyway. It was his people that called down the CG b/c Kallor was such a tyrant. Kallor killed 12 million people b/c he knew the elder gods were coming to topple him. And it took three elder gods, K'rul, Draconus, and Nightchill to bring him down, but not until he cursed them right back. And speaking of curses I think maybe those curses are broken or used up, I mean Nightchill quasi died, so her curse is gone, K'rul is gaining power again so his curse seems to be fading, and things are heading for Draconus to be freed from his sword so his curse will be over, doesn't that mean that Kallor's three curses against him are also almost over? And let's not forget the most important reasons, I mean SE's friend and advance reader chose the name for the forums, it only makes sense that he knows alot of things we don't and that Kallor has a pivotal role to play, c'mon, Kallor was a human tyrant who killed 12 million of his own people!!!! I wouldn't be surprised if the human tyrant killing off the T'lan Imass is his great-great-great times 12-grandson.

[Dark Mac]

Morgoth said:

I very much doubt there is any indication at all to be found showing the CG to have been 'evil' before the fall. He was curious, that's all...

Consider, if you wish, the reaction among the worshippers of ST if the same thing happend to him.. I dunno, I think your argument is flawed, especially as we have little to no knowledge as to the reason behind the jolly green's presence

Hmm, I thought that someone said at one point that the CG saw what the circle of mages did as a new source of power, but it turned out to be an illusion...similar to what happens with Mael and the sea god in MT. But regardless of that, he had a fleet of statues sent after him, and that doesn't generally happen to good guys.

As for Kallor's descendants...both of his continents were annihilated. I very much doubt that any of them survived. And if Kallor's curse is over, that means his mortality has returned, and he's going to die.

[Lister of Smeg]

Or maybe he will ascend. The curse stopped that from happening, so presumably he would then be able to if the curse wore off.