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i know it was kinda of a let down for Dujek to die in such a anticlimactic fashion, but does anyone else think his death was needed so he could lead the armies of the dead soldiers? just a theory, but it seems to make sense to me
Dujeck Onearm - Edited for spoilers
#1
presumingpete 
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Posted 06 April 2006 - 08:53 PM
#2 Guest_Gooch_*
Posted 06 April 2006 - 08:56 PM
possible. i also found it terribly anticlimatic. The guy meant so much to previous books and the soldiers, if not the latest books. One would think his death could have, even if not "in scene"... some impact to those soldiers. Instead, its merely a vehicle to push along Ganoes into his role..and loses any emotional weight.
unless its on purpose...b/c he didn't die. in fact...i like that one...i'm going with it. Its a ruse.
unless its on purpose...b/c he didn't die. in fact...i like that one...i'm going with it. Its a ruse.
#3 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 06 April 2006 - 09:07 PM
Think he died for real. Just like Whiskeyjack he's not coming back. The legions of the dead will be ruled by the bridgeburners.
#4
Morgoth
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Posted 06 April 2006 - 09:10 PM
I like that about Erikson. How he sometimes kill major characters with no sermon at all
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#5 Guest_Tiste Coolio_*
Posted 06 April 2006 - 10:18 PM
I like the fact that SE's willing to kill off of major characters (it definitely keeps you on your toes), but the way he handled Heboric and Dujek was more than just anti-climatic - it was like a footnote! Much more minor characters were treated with at least some recognition of their value (e.g. Truth).
It appears (to me at least) that he spent so little time with these two characters because he wanted to reinforce the idea that anyone can die in an instant. Bang! You're done. However, with the sixth book, I think we get that concept already. Personally, I would have preferred a few more pages dedicated to their deaths - if not a Whiskyjack/Itkovian thing, then something at least the level of Truth...
It appears (to me at least) that he spent so little time with these two characters because he wanted to reinforce the idea that anyone can die in an instant. Bang! You're done. However, with the sixth book, I think we get that concept already. Personally, I would have preferred a few more pages dedicated to their deaths - if not a Whiskyjack/Itkovian thing, then something at least the level of Truth...
#6 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 06 April 2006 - 10:23 PM
Who's left to mourn Dujek? Whiskeyjack died, maybe the Crusts. There was no-one left who was really close to him, who was really a friend. Same for Heboric, his only friends are dead or broken. And Crocus did some mourning.
#7 Guest_Tiste Coolio_*
Posted 06 April 2006 - 11:56 PM
Danyah said:
Who's left to mourn Dujek? Whiskeyjack died, maybe the Crusts. There was no-one left who was really close to him, who was really a friend. Same for Heboric, his only friends are dead or broken. And Crocus did some mourning.
All true. However, I found Crokus/Cutter's mourning somewhat perfunctory, while Ganoes most certainly could have outlined the significance of Dujek's passing. Even if he wasn't that close with Dujek, he was aware of the impact Dujek had on the Malazan empire and its expansion. Even an "O, how the might have fallen" bit would have nice...some recognition of a great man that had come to an ignominious end.
#8
Abyss
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Posted 07 April 2006 - 12:18 AM
Dujek's death was a bit anti-climatic, but the point had been made earlier that he was a broken man. His story was told, and his death served to move Paran to a more interesting space as High Fist of his own army.
Heboric was a main player in two books thus far. And while his death came out of nowhere, the shield anvil revelation and subsequent stopping the jade chunks was pretty damn cool.
- Abyss, could say that Heboric blew chunks.
Heboric was a main player in two books thus far. And while his death came out of nowhere, the shield anvil revelation and subsequent stopping the jade chunks was pretty damn cool.
- Abyss, could say that Heboric blew chunks.
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
#9
Dragonstar
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Posted 07 April 2006 - 08:53 PM
I felt that Dujek's role finished in MOI, we left him a broken man, he was only really mentioned in HOC and TBH in passing, i felt that we would not hear from him again, i was a little bit dissapointed that they only mentioned that he was dead. and as for people not mourining that much, its pretty real life, paran has a lot on his mind and other things to worry about, so he cant spend his time reminicing, where as cutter did not really know heboric, and thought him crazy, it was enough to take his body to the otataral isle for him.
#10
tjc52
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Posted 07 April 2006 - 10:06 PM
Everyone seems to think that Paran becoming High Fist of Dujeks Army is a good thing. I'm not so sure - I think I liked it best when he was "unfettered" as it were, free to do his own thing. Now he's tied down looking after an army. To be honest, this seems to be a somewhat useless position for him, given the apparent nature of his powers as Master of the Deck.
#11 Guest_Gooch_*
Posted 07 April 2006 - 10:47 PM
just seems to me (going with my winsome little theory) that its quite conveniant that Dujek was never seen to really carry-off that he really had the plague, and that it was also conveniant that "info" was easily played to make Paran High Fist. What better way to tranform a dying army but to manafucture a new beginning? Its not like the Malazan army hasn't played this type of game before with subterfuge and misdirection. I subscribe, errantly or not, that Dujek is in fact alive and that this was his attempt to jolt that army and fix "perception". I find that he was a broken man, and his unsubstantiated fall from grace, just too conveniant. I think SE is using reader's assumption and a bit of trickery to play out something.
I know its pure conjecture, but I find his death smacking of purposefulness from a wily author. I say he lives and you will see him again.
I know its pure conjecture, but I find his death smacking of purposefulness from a wily author. I say he lives and you will see him again.
#12 Guest_Trake_*
Posted 07 April 2006 - 11:33 PM
I too thought that Dujek's death was lacking the kind of honour regarded to a legendary soldier and general. However, it could be that he is just dead. The army he left behind was hardly his army any more, which leaves them as a blank slate for Ganoes to make them his army. Why does he need an army? I guess that is the question, but then Rake has the Tiste Andii, and other gods and ascendants have their followers. What I wonder is, where will he go that will mean he needs 4000 mounted desert warriors. Outside of Seven Cities I dont remember the mention of any deserts.
#13
Loof
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Posted 07 April 2006 - 11:55 PM
Well desert warriors can presumably fight in other surondings to...
About the reason for paran "getting" an army, it might be a settup for confronting paran with the "problem" of being worshiped as a god.
About the reason for paran "getting" an army, it might be a settup for confronting paran with the "problem" of being worshiped as a god.
#14
spiralx
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Posted 08 April 2006 - 03:04 PM
I don't think Paran thought he "needed" an army, but given that he was there and that it seemed as though there was a serious lack of people who could have taken over I'd imagine he thought it was his duty.
#15
innokenti
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Posted 08 April 2006 - 06:52 PM
I found Dujek's death to be right. As it was. Because Paran had set out to save Dujek, make sure he didn't die... but that wasn't necessarily the right thing, the fact that Dujek dies and all the rest of the command survive is because... well, their value together is probably higher than Dujek's. Even with all his awesomeness (let's not deny it), he was just one great general who was by now broken and past his time.
Or something along those lines. Poor Dujek.
Or something along those lines. Poor Dujek.
#16
GingerBreadMan
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Posted 08 April 2006 - 11:43 PM
So whats next for Dujek? He ran in a circle of people who seem to have a tendency to ignore death. How many of the old family are really dead as in stone cold dead they arnt coming back anymore? I suspect we havnt seen the last of him or some remnant of him.
#17
presumingpete
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Posted 09 April 2006 - 10:12 PM
i honestly agree, especially after hood went out of his way to bump off whiskeyjack, i think he may wait to see if there are other options before letting dujek through hoods gate
#18 Guest_Trake_*
Posted 10 April 2006 - 05:31 AM
The thing with Dujek is that although he is a great general, no general is great without am army. He could join the ghost army as he was a bridgeburner at the start of GoTM, but then how many of the really old soldiers will know about his abilities. If there was a leader to cover all the ages of the bridgeburners it would be Whiskeyjack not Dujek. I feel that these two as great as they are now share the same fate.
#19
Dolorous Menhir
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Posted 10 April 2006 - 10:49 AM
Dujek was never a Bridgeburner. He wasn't in the original company that crossed Raraku, and I don't think he joined them between them and GotM, at which point he was not a Bridgeburner.
#20 Guest_Clawmaster_*
Posted 23 April 2006 - 10:24 PM
Morgoth said:
I like that about Erikson. How he sometimes kill major characters with no sermon at all
Except the least interesting ones. He always seems to find a way for them to stay alive. Facing almost unmeasurable numbers of enemies or even Gods they will always battle through it and come out alive to yet further make the malazan-series more uninteresting. I just love reading page after page about how one dull guy whose only character trait seems to be his prowess with long knives uses them to "go Conan Barbarian" on his enemies. (Sarcasm Warning inserted) It's goes from laughable to corny after a dozen pages. I'm sick of reading about Kalam Mekhar. He is one-dimensional and adds nothing of depth to the series. Where is the layers in his personality and what does he give me as a reader. Nothing thought-provoking has ever come out of his mouth, nor has his character ever been able awake any sort of feelings in me.
The same applies to Ganoes Paran, QB, Apsalar (sigh, I was almost starting to like her in the first half of tBH) etc etc
He had to kill the only interesting character in tBH though.
He had to kill Pearl.
Pearl is the saving grace imo. He brings something to the novel that almost everyone else seems to lack: real humanity.
It's tragedy and human weakness as well as incredible strength at it's very finest.
God knows I'll miss him.
