[Orfantal]

Am I the only one confused here, we seem to have a nation that worships Togg and Fanderay, that has presumably been around for quite some time, and boats a siginificant army plus Mortal Sword, Destriant, Shield Anvil etc. Yet not long ago we were seeing Togg and Fanderay as newly reunited and empowered by taking the Beast Throne. In fact they were said to be so lacking in servants that they took on the Enkaral spirit inhabiting the Toblakai body that had previously been inhabitied by the demon Kalam killed. I'm also unsure as to Toc and the Grey Swords position. I presume that this means that a god/gods can have more than one Mortal Sword ... sort of devalues th importance of them.

[innokenti]

I think one of the theories is that Togg and Fanderay get a mortal sword etc each.

[Orfantal]

Hm not so sure I'd go along with that... both the Perish and the Grey Swords seem to be totally involved with both gods, there's been no indication that either Mortal Sword is linked specifically to one.

[Morgoth]

but still, they are two.. normal rules may not apply ..

And the toblakai thingy was chosen as knight, was it not? Knight and Mortal swords are two different things.

As to their cult. We know from that city in MoI that I can't remember the name of, that the cult of Togg and Fanderay existed before the reunion.

In addition, though the mortal sword and stuff perhaps belong to one of the two (toc probably being Togg's MS) then that does not rule out that they are considered to belong to both of the gods. I mean, see it like a marriage. Togg for instance bought the house, but it belongs to the both of them

[Dolorous Menhir]

I'm a little more confused over the timing - the Perish have been preparing their portal for the ships for over two years (and presumably have had Destriants, Mortal Swords etc for as long, if not longer) but the general consensus on this board is that the time between end of MoI (reunion of Togg & Fanny) & BH is roughly 1 year, not as much as 2...

So either the wolves had an earthly power structure before they returned from obscurity (point in favour: Rath'Togg and Fanderay in Capustan) & the Perish inexplicably knew what to do, or the timing between MoI and BH is certainly longer.

I don't think any there were any Destriants or anything before the reunion and ascension to the Beast Throne though, as the power of the two gods would not have been available for their mortal followers. There were priests to the pair, obviously, as we've seen examples, but I don't think there would be Mortal Swords during the period when they were lost...

[Orfantal]

Yep thats where I'm getting confused, the Wolves may well have had worshippers, Capustan shows that. But as you say surely there was no power to draw on for a Mortal Sword, Destriant etc. The two didn't have a realm of their own, Fandaray was lost, and Togg was in Chaos. Yet the Perish seem to have access to their power and the impression is that the Perish have been around for a long time. Unless all is not as it seems with them!!

[Tiger_sword]

Unless like manty others they worshiped another god before T&F but then decided to follow them when they ascended. Like the grey swords changed from Fener to Trech. Prehaps they used to worship Fener?

[Morgoth]

That's a viable theory, especially since the names are so similar. It would indeed seem as if the twin wolves are consolidating their position by stepping into the power vacum left by fener's fall. 'New gods' seem to face difficulties in the start phase (read the barghast elder spirits). To convert major parts of the obviously large cult of fener would be an excellent way of ensuring both power and influence I think

[Dolorous Menhir]

The Grey Swords didn't really SWITCH gods, it was more a case of the entire old leadership dying (though Itkovian hung around for a bit) and the new command being forced to follow a new god. No-one who actively used Fener's power or had a direct connection to him survived Capustan to switch allegiance to Treach (again save Itkovian, but even he didn't do that).

I don't think it's likely the Perish worshipped somebody else and then switched when T & F were freed, there's a pretty clear example in BH of what happens when a priesthood defies their god in this way. The only explanation would be that the Perish's prior God ended up like Fener and they needed a quick replacement...not very satisfying though, and you would've thought someone would mentioned or noted that they hadn't always worshipped the Wolf Gods.

Edit: Or maybe it was Fener, as you say Morgoth. Basically I just had the impression that the leadership of the Perish were not new, in the same way the post-MoI Grey Swords are new (led by people in their 20's).

[Orfantal]

Not sure that's entirely true...if you recall Hood made the offer to take on the Grey Swords, and that was before the leaders died. He certainly gave the impression that he would have taken on Brukhalian and co. The example in BH with D'rek comes from a god that remains empowered...don' think Fener would want to pop his head above the parapet long enough for vengeance on perceived traitors.

The only downside of the theory that they've shifted allegiance is an impression I'd got that they had worshipped the Wolves for some time, but I'm not sure that's based on anything concrete.

[Tiger_sword]

I'd say another problem is that they had been preparing for two years. This implies that their god (may have) told them about the malazans coming then if they did 'switch' gods then T&F would have to have had a very similar agenda to the previous god in other words they wanted the Perish to continue preparing for the Malazans and carry out their intended mission. This seams a bit unlikely as most gods seam to have their own plans. Either that or what the Perish are going to do is extremely important and even the replacement of gods could not deter them.

Also, they Perish used T&F's warren didn't they? If they had been planning to use that warren all along then they must have known about the new rulers. Only other idea i have is prehaps they foresaw the ascention of T&F or where informed by someone who had (the Eresal prehaps as she can time travel)

[Illuyankas]

As for the dual MS etc ranks, with the Perish that makes one male and one female holder of each title, matching the whole twin gods thing. I doubt it's a mistake. And the Eres-warning, god-switching thing seems to make sense but they may have just had various signs and portents earlier, enough to convince them.

[Set'alahd Crool]

I wonder where the grey helms are. And the grey gauntlets, grey greaves, grey plates.....

[Murrin]

Set said:

I wonder where the grey helms are. And the grey gauntlets, grey greaves, grey plates.....

I think we've established already that there will only be two armies.

[Orfantal]

Set said:

I wonder where the grey helms are. And the grey gauntlets, grey greaves, grey plates.....

The grey socks...the grey underwear...

[Dolorous Menhir]

the grey beards...

[Set'alahd Crool]

Dolorous Menhir said:

the grey beards...

I didn't think zz-top would be in the series.....but with all the other elder gods it makes sense. Good call.

[Cluracan AbSylvas]

and to continue to the degeneration of this thread... The Grey Under-padding... stinky and from Mott Wood.

-- Clu

[Morgoth]

and to stop it from degenrating further..

Topic!!

[BridgeBurner]

Set said:

I wonder where the grey helms are. And the grey gauntlets, grey greaves, grey plates.....

The Grey Helms are in Tavore's fleet.

Now, what I wonder is who are these mysterious Grey Shields I keep reading about in discussion here...