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while rereading GOTM i saw, that Bellurdan was a Thelomen like Karsa.
now I'm not sure, if there's something written whether Karsa could know Bellurdan, or rather where Bellurdan was coming from.
It might be quite interesting, what would have happened if Karsa would have met Bellurdan.
another question that walks through my head: would Bellurdans part of Silverfox's soul come out, when she would met with Karsa? And what would happen then?
some thoughts about karsa and bellurdan...
#2 Guest_Skawn_*
Posted 15 January 2006 - 05:36 PM
I don't think Bellurdan was a Teblor like Karsa, he hails from a different division of the Thelomen Toblakai race altogether (thats kinda speculation and I have no idea where Bel may actually be from).
Of course the Thelomens are a long lived race - theres no way of telling how old in human terms Bel was at the time of his death while Karsa is young.
Interesting question about whether a meeting between silverfox and karsa would stir an awakening of Bel within her tho.
Of course the Thelomens are a long lived race - theres no way of telling how old in human terms Bel was at the time of his death while Karsa is young.
Interesting question about whether a meeting between silverfox and karsa would stir an awakening of Bel within her tho.
#3
Serrat 
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Posted 16 January 2006 - 02:13 AM
I think the whole speculation about Bellurdan being from a different tribe or some such thing is completely resonable, exhibit a is his ability to use a warren. I am quite confident when I say the blood oil in/on Karsa would keep him from ever accessing a warren. That being said, Bellurdan and Karsa may be from such different tribes that they may be less similar than one might, at first examination, think.
#4 Guest_Skawn_*
Posted 16 January 2006 - 08:59 AM
Agreed. We didn't get to see a great deal of Bel but I suspect he was 'true' Theloman than Teblor.
#5 Guest_Beresah_*
Posted 16 January 2006 - 03:12 PM
"Serrat" said:
I am quite confident when I say the blood oil in/on Karsa would keep him from ever accessing a warren
And I'm not sure, that the effect of the blood-oil couldn't evaporate...
another thought is - at the pass, where Karsa and his friends had found the cave (not sure about that, if it was a cave) with the writings in / on - i think there was written, that all thelomen would be brought to that plateau where the teblor live now
could somebody approve my thoughts about that all?
waah - i hope my text is understandable...
#6 Guest_malaz3_*
Posted 16 January 2006 - 05:57 PM
I was under the impression that Karsa is of more or less pure thelomen toblakai heritage, by merit of his exclusion from the rest of the world (and his entire peoples), as apparently brought about by Icarium.
Other tribes, such as the Barghast, have toblakai blood - but watered down by that of humans themselves. I dont think its unreasonable to suspect that at least one watered down thelomen toblakai tribe calls itself thelomen still - but such a tribe wouldnt be a part of the 'teblor' society as they would be seen as traitors to the cause of violence - mixing with 'children'. As such, Karsa has never met Bellurdan, but Bellurdan might recognise Karsa (prophecy and so forht)
Other tribes, such as the Barghast, have toblakai blood - but watered down by that of humans themselves. I dont think its unreasonable to suspect that at least one watered down thelomen toblakai tribe calls itself thelomen still - but such a tribe wouldnt be a part of the 'teblor' society as they would be seen as traitors to the cause of violence - mixing with 'children'. As such, Karsa has never met Bellurdan, but Bellurdan might recognise Karsa (prophecy and so forht)
#7
Serrat
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Posted 16 January 2006 - 06:37 PM
@Beresah
Well, when I said he didn't have access to a warren I meant actually controlling the warren. Being in a warren isn't exclusive to warren weilders, controlling them is. I still hold to my belief that the otataral in the blood oil the the Teblor put on themselves(and ingest on occasion) would prevent Karsa from ever controlling a warren. Of course this is only my theory, feel free to debunk or disbelieve me.
Well, when I said he didn't have access to a warren I meant actually controlling the warren. Being in a warren isn't exclusive to warren weilders, controlling them is. I still hold to my belief that the otataral in the blood oil the the Teblor put on themselves(and ingest on occasion) would prevent Karsa from ever controlling a warren. Of course this is only my theory, feel free to debunk or disbelieve me.
#8 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:00 PM
Beresah's point about Karsa and warrens still applies I reckon. When Pearl turned up Tavore's tent for the pow-wow regarding the bad news from Genebackis, Tavore had to put her Otataral Sword in a "lead casket" or else Pearls warren would presumably not have access to her tent. Indeed, even in the casket he had to nick off pretty sharpish, as the Otataral Power started "bleeding".
So how comes Blood Oil impregnated Karsa can travel a Warren with impunity? Which he clearly does in HOC, the warren being Telann.
So how comes Blood Oil impregnated Karsa can travel a Warren with impunity? Which he clearly does in HOC, the warren being Telann.
#9
Serrat
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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:06 PM
That is a good point. Except that it was Topper who came to visit Tavore, and not Pearl. 
Although I can think of one real reason why it doesn't apply to Karsa: Kurald Emurlahn and Tellan... what do they have in common that the imperial warren lacks? They are Elder Warrens, otataral can't touch that.
Although I can think of one real reason why it doesn't apply to Karsa: Kurald Emurlahn and Tellan... what do they have in common that the imperial warren lacks? They are Elder Warrens, otataral can't touch that.
#10 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:11 PM
Topper - yeah, that's the guy. Your point re Elder Warrens makes sense.
#11
caladanbrood
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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:38 PM
Bellurdan is a heck of a lot older than Karsa. He had been Nightchill's partner for eons by the time of GotM. He is pure-blood, a far as we can make out, whereas Karsa is just a Teblor. A particularly vicious and unpleasent Teblor, but a Teblor nonetheless;)
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#12 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:49 PM
Any idea why Bellurdan was so long lived ? Pureblood ? Alchemy ? Something Nightchill put in his Tea ?
#13
caladanbrood
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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:58 PM
Bit of each, I would imagine. The Thelomen were a hugely powerful race in their own right. Remember the one still alive at the bottom of the well...
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#14 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 16 January 2006 - 08:03 PM
Good point re that Giant. The Teblor are a tad Dunedain compared with Numenoreans then it seems ? Weakening of blood, leading to lessening of lifespan. Giants alive in antiquity, their bones found in graves the world over. Reminds me of the Nephilim in a way, the mythical Giantish race in the Old Testament.
#15
Serrat
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Posted 16 January 2006 - 09:00 PM
A little off topic but... why not... I always took the reference to the Nephilim being "giants among men" as meaning something along the lines of heroic.
*clears throat*
Back on topic. I tend to agree with the sentiment about the Teblor being the red-headed step-Thelomen, it makes the whole high mage thing mesh better methinks.
So cheers to Mr Brood for his succinctness in getting to the point.
*clears throat*
Back on topic. I tend to agree with the sentiment about the Teblor being the red-headed step-Thelomen, it makes the whole high mage thing mesh better methinks.
So cheers to Mr Brood for his succinctness in getting to the point.
#16 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 16 January 2006 - 10:33 PM
Maybe the Thelomen could be viewed as heroic in their heyday though, it's only as the fallen Teblor that they have become savage ?
Like a dog with a bone something else has struck a bell within me about Karsa and his anti-magic ability. He was able to shrug off Kurald Emurlahn on board the Silanha. Not normal for Otataral. However, with KE being a shattered warren, then it becomes possible. A hint of things to come maybe ? In that the Tiste Edur may find Otataral a problem in the future.
Like a dog with a bone something else has struck a bell within me about Karsa and his anti-magic ability. He was able to shrug off Kurald Emurlahn on board the Silanha. Not normal for Otataral. However, with KE being a shattered warren, then it becomes possible. A hint of things to come maybe ? In that the Tiste Edur may find Otataral a problem in the future.
#17
Serrat
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Posted 16 January 2006 - 10:58 PM
I had not thought of that! Good observation.
Perhaps as an explanation the constant contact with the Otataral in blood oil, in addition to ingestion, is more potent than raw Otataral? Or perhaps the CG has offered a little more to Karsa than a place in his house.
All speculation though of course, as is my wont to do.
Perhaps as an explanation the constant contact with the Otataral in blood oil, in addition to ingestion, is more potent than raw Otataral? Or perhaps the CG has offered a little more to Karsa than a place in his house.
All speculation though of course, as is my wont to do.
#18 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:08 AM
While I'm observing stuff I also noticed Karsa shrugging off High Tellan when he removed the stone from that Jaghut woman in HOC. Now shattered Kurald Emurlahn is one thing. A High Tellan Ritual of recent shaping is quite another otoh. A quite amazing feat when you think about it. And one loaded with portent I suggest.
Your speculation Serrat is quite keen I reckon. Has he been blessed by the CG ? Will his army of Teblor be immune to all forms of magic ? I suspect they will be a hideously strong army to deal with.
Your speculation Serrat is quite keen I reckon. Has he been blessed by the CG ? Will his army of Teblor be immune to all forms of magic ? I suspect they will be a hideously strong army to deal with.
#20 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:57 AM
Indeed. Wouldn't want to be on Genebackis when they come down from the plateau. Reapers Gale sounds like a bloodbath to my mind, maybe that's where it kicks off ?
