Help
A thread on his books, since I don't see one.
For those who don't know, he's one of the leading lights in the 'New Weird' literature movement aimed at revitalising and de-clicheising fantasy.
He's known for being one of Tolkiens outspoken critics - "A wen on the arse of fantasy" - and, more specifically, the legacy Tolkien left.
He has four books published. His first, King Rat, I haven't read. It's set in London and sounds vaguely Neil Gaiman-ish.
The rest, Perdido Street Station, The Scar, and Iron Council, are set in the same mythical world but are only loosely connected, and can be read as standalones (though they work better read in order). It's a fantasy world but with an almost steampunk setting where magic is a science and technology does occur - such as primitive robots, or trains.
Mieville stands out for his use of descriptive language - to the point where several amazon reviewers mark him down because the poor dears had to reach for a dictionary. He's no Joyce, but he's complex.
He's also remarkable, in my opinion, for his absolutely phenomenal worldbuilding and the way he uses his language to form an atmosphere.
For example, Perdido Street Station is set in the city of New Crobuzon - a magnificent, sometimes gruesome creation that's staggeringly detailed and comes off as believable.
His protagonists too are not typical - no cliche heroes here. Instead they're ordinary citizens of his world sucked into extraordinary situations and forced to deal with them - sometimes with devastating consequences. They're all believable, flawed, and yet likeable.
And then there is his supporting cast... highlights include a member of a species of Spider-gods (well, nearly) known as Weavers, and Uther Doul, who I won't spoil for those of you planning to read The Scar... suffice to say he's utterly awesome.
Those who do know... discuss away, about anything you might wish to.
Forgive any poor spelling or stuff - four hours sleep in twenty four...
China Mieville
#1
polishgenius 
- Heart of Courage
-
- Group: LHTEC
- Posts: 5,319
- Joined: 16-June 05
Posted 08 January 2006 - 08:18 AM
I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you.
#2
Roland
- High Fist
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 444
- Joined: 16-September 05
Posted 08 January 2006 - 09:43 AM
I've read only the first 150 or so pages of Perdido (cause I had ordered it for a friend and I had to give it to him. Bugger...) but they were fabulous. Not as captivating as Erikson's works, not... likeable, but tremendously original and imagination-provoking. I'm gonna read the book some day and then proceed to the next 
#3 Guest_Jay Tomio_*
Posted 08 January 2006 - 11:20 AM
Mieville is, Simply one of the great talents in fantastic fiction.
That's not correct, he published his collection (which includes a new Crobuzon story) Looking for Jake, last year and a non-fiction Between Equal Rights: A Marxist Theory of International Law, and a novella, The Tain (which is also in Looking for Jake, and in Cities,an anthology with stories by Ryman, Filippo, and Moorcock.
Although I agree with his criticisms of Tolkien's impact, most of which he - admittedly - took from Moorcock. I feel in the end it serves as a bit of a diservice to his work, as people tend to asssocitae that with him, and it's a bit polarizing., and don't focus on the fact that he's a terrific talent, with a captivating, sweeping baroque prose, and lovecraftian like imaginaition.
A personal favorite of mine, defiintely one of my favorite 10 curent writers of fantastic fiction with names like Crowley, Auster, Chabon, VanderMeer, Harrsion, Lucius Shepsard , Jeffrey Ford, etc
Quote
He has four books published. His first, King Rat, I haven't read. It's set in London and sounds vaguely Neil Gaiman-ish.
That's not correct, he published his collection (which includes a new Crobuzon story) Looking for Jake, last year and a non-fiction Between Equal Rights: A Marxist Theory of International Law, and a novella, The Tain (which is also in Looking for Jake, and in Cities,an anthology with stories by Ryman, Filippo, and Moorcock.
Although I agree with his criticisms of Tolkien's impact, most of which he - admittedly - took from Moorcock. I feel in the end it serves as a bit of a diservice to his work, as people tend to asssocitae that with him, and it's a bit polarizing., and don't focus on the fact that he's a terrific talent, with a captivating, sweeping baroque prose, and lovecraftian like imaginaition.
A personal favorite of mine, defiintely one of my favorite 10 curent writers of fantastic fiction with names like Crowley, Auster, Chabon, VanderMeer, Harrsion, Lucius Shepsard , Jeffrey Ford, etc
#4 Guest_Harold Bloom_*
Posted 08 January 2006 - 04:47 PM
My first experience with Mieville is a failed attempt to read The Scar. The main reason I quit is well articulated by Jeff Vandermeer in a Washington Post article,
"China Miéville's The Scar, set in the same imaginary world milieu as his last novel, Perdido Street Station, suffers from structural deficiencies, awkward writing and a reliance on inert description. Although the robust plot and the author's devotion to his main characters eventually save the novel, some readers will wonder whether the investment is worth the effort. To reach the often awe-inspiring scenes found in the latter half of The Scar, one must, as with much of H.P. Lovecraft and William Hope Hodgson's work, muddle through a number of poor decisions on the author's part."
The full article is located at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?p...8¬Found=true
I had an easier time with Perdido Street Station, and indeed I finished it and immensly enjoyed parts of it, but I agree with the following observations by Adam Lipkin of Bookslut, "The generic plot wouldn't be a problem were it not for the writing itself. Miéville seems to have a thousand ideas that strike him as nifty, and he seems to feel compelled to throw them into the novel at any cost (I can only assume that that the deluge made it impossible for anyone at Del Rey to actually attempt to edit him)...Miéville, however, lets his own desires to examine politics and flout literary conventions get in the way of simply writing a good book."
The full article is located at: http://www.bookslut....4_07_002789.php
Please do not take offense. My goal is not to dissuade readers from buying the books of Mieville. Rather, I only wish to express how I am not as taken with him as the readers of fantasy at large seem to be.
"China Miéville's The Scar, set in the same imaginary world milieu as his last novel, Perdido Street Station, suffers from structural deficiencies, awkward writing and a reliance on inert description. Although the robust plot and the author's devotion to his main characters eventually save the novel, some readers will wonder whether the investment is worth the effort. To reach the often awe-inspiring scenes found in the latter half of The Scar, one must, as with much of H.P. Lovecraft and William Hope Hodgson's work, muddle through a number of poor decisions on the author's part."
The full article is located at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?p...8¬Found=true
I had an easier time with Perdido Street Station, and indeed I finished it and immensly enjoyed parts of it, but I agree with the following observations by Adam Lipkin of Bookslut, "The generic plot wouldn't be a problem were it not for the writing itself. Miéville seems to have a thousand ideas that strike him as nifty, and he seems to feel compelled to throw them into the novel at any cost (I can only assume that that the deluge made it impossible for anyone at Del Rey to actually attempt to edit him)...Miéville, however, lets his own desires to examine politics and flout literary conventions get in the way of simply writing a good book."
The full article is located at: http://www.bookslut....4_07_002789.php
Please do not take offense. My goal is not to dissuade readers from buying the books of Mieville. Rather, I only wish to express how I am not as taken with him as the readers of fantasy at large seem to be.
#5 Guest_Jay Tomio_*
Posted 08 January 2006 - 05:38 PM
I'm famliar with both criticisms (they were linked at the Mumpsimus a long whilr ago), and actually agree with VanderMeer (who is a terrific author IMHO) almost completely, but despite that, I absolutely loved The Scar.
I think the knock on Mieville is one I can live with. People see the talent and an inability to harness it through a complete book, as noted in Vandemeer's last line:
and Lipkin:
Lipkin offers (well used to) some very nice commentary from one of my favorite sites, but what fantasy does he actually like?
I think the Hodgson and Lovecraft reference Vandermeer uses is apt, both of those authors are authors that have supreme ideas/imagination -and in such abundance - that they allowed it to overide any sense of structure. That withstanding, I think both Lovecraft and Hodgson have written some of the truly noteworthy pieces of fantastic ficiton - even if flawed, and to me that's better than reading an exercise of flawless rehash.
I would also note that the fact that a works gets reviewed at either Bookslut and the Post (which admittedly is liberal to more SF/F reviews than a lot of papers) is something to speak of. Imagine what would have been said about Gardens of the Moon. It would have been ugly, but in truth it would never be reviewed.
Mieville is just one of the few authors that I just completely come away from his books with admiration, even when being fully concious of the flaws, much like a Lovecraft.
I think the knock on Mieville is one I can live with. People see the talent and an inability to harness it through a complete book, as noted in Vandemeer's last line:
Quote
somewhere within The Scar lurks a masterpiece.
and Lipkin:
Quote
I've long been frustrated by China Miéville. He's clearly an immensely talented writer, and I've enjoyed the occasional essay by him.
Quote
What's frustrating isn't that Miéville is a bad writer. He's not. Throughout Iron Council, there are moments of near-genius
Lipkin offers (well used to) some very nice commentary from one of my favorite sites, but what fantasy does he actually like?
I think the Hodgson and Lovecraft reference Vandermeer uses is apt, both of those authors are authors that have supreme ideas/imagination -and in such abundance - that they allowed it to overide any sense of structure. That withstanding, I think both Lovecraft and Hodgson have written some of the truly noteworthy pieces of fantastic ficiton - even if flawed, and to me that's better than reading an exercise of flawless rehash.
I would also note that the fact that a works gets reviewed at either Bookslut and the Post (which admittedly is liberal to more SF/F reviews than a lot of papers) is something to speak of. Imagine what would have been said about Gardens of the Moon. It would have been ugly, but in truth it would never be reviewed.
Mieville is just one of the few authors that I just completely come away from his books with admiration, even when being fully concious of the flaws, much like a Lovecraft.
#6
werewolfv2
- OurWild.World
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 300
- Joined: 04-September 05
- Location:Yellowstone
- Interests:Books and photography
Posted 08 January 2006 - 07:19 PM
yeah I have to agree that he does go off a bit, but in general the big picture seems to be something that leaves me in awe.
#7
Asheroth
- High Fist
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 392
- Joined: 09-August 03
Posted 09 January 2006 - 12:36 AM
Just read The Scar, and now I finally get the references to the book that were all over the forum, namely the erstwhile LooseCannon's signature 'I am the Brucolac, and your sword won't save you. You think you can face me?' It seemed awfully generic and lame at the time, and I was shocked to discover it in The Scar
I thouroughly enjoyed The Scar, even if it was a bit tough to struggle through at first, before you got used to Mieville's style of describing everything and explaining nothing. His lobsters and cactusmen and anophelii should be thouroughly silly, but somehow he manages to pull it off.
I thouroughly enjoyed The Scar, even if it was a bit tough to struggle through at first, before you got used to Mieville's style of describing everything and explaining nothing. His lobsters and cactusmen and anophelii should be thouroughly silly, but somehow he manages to pull it off.
#8
Brys
- Fist
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 218
- Joined: 02-August 05
Posted 09 January 2006 - 07:39 PM
Mieville's one of my favourite writers, and IMO easily one of the most talented writers in the genre. There are certainly flaws in the structure of his novel and I think the criticisms of the traditional plot in Perdido Street Station are well founded - but these are more than offset by the near perfection of the rest of the features of the novel. His imagination is supreme, his prose is one of the best, comparable to Vandermeer and even Harrison and his characters tend to be excellently crafted. And I don't see a problem in a traditional plot, so long as it is used in an original way - especially the case in Iron Council (which I felt, while the weakest of the New Crobuzon books, also showed the potential to be the best of them)
"His lobsters and cactusmen and anophelii should be thouroughly silly"
Why should it be any more silly than the use of elves, dwarves, dragons - or for some Erikson examples - the use of T'lan Imass, the Jaghut, the Tiste Andii? It's exactly this point Mieville and the New Weird movement are making.
"His lobsters and cactusmen and anophelii should be thouroughly silly"
Why should it be any more silly than the use of elves, dwarves, dragons - or for some Erikson examples - the use of T'lan Imass, the Jaghut, the Tiste Andii? It's exactly this point Mieville and the New Weird movement are making.
#9 Guest_Fool_*
Posted 09 January 2006 - 08:39 PM
I read The Scar and i very much agree with this bit:
"lets his own desires to examine politics and flout literary conventions get in the way of simply writing a good book."
He's way too reactionary in my opinion. Your main goal as an author should be to write a good book, not lance literary boils.
I also think that his baroque prose does not fit with the steam punk setting and modern themes.
"lets his own desires to examine politics and flout literary conventions get in the way of simply writing a good book."
He's way too reactionary in my opinion. Your main goal as an author should be to write a good book, not lance literary boils.
I also think that his baroque prose does not fit with the steam punk setting and modern themes.
#10 Guest_Harold Bloom_*
Posted 10 January 2006 - 12:50 AM
Brys said:
Why should it be any more silly than the use of elves, dwarves, dragons - or for some Erikson examples - the use of T'lan Imass, the Jaghut, the Tiste Andii? It's exactly this point Mieville and the New Weird movement are making.
Mieville is writing all those books to show that elves and dwarves are silly? Brilliant! I can't wait till they take on the harlequin romance.
#11
stone monkey
- I'm the baddest man alive and I don't plan to die...
-
- Group: (COPPA) Users Awaiting Moderatio
- Posts: 2,369
- Joined: 28-July 03
- Location:The Rainy City
Posted 10 January 2006 - 03:25 PM
Fool said:
I also think that his baroque prose does not fit with the steam punk setting and modern themes.
I'd disagree with you on that. There's are certain gothic grandeur to his setting that almost requires his florid prose. That's not to say he doesn't go over the top sometimes, but despite I think a more conventional prose style might detract from the atmosphere with which he imbues his setting.
If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do. If some one maintains that two and two are five, or that Iceland is on the equator, you feel pity rather than anger, unless you know so little of arithmetic or geography that his opinion shakes your own contrary conviction. … So whenever you find yourself getting angry about a difference of opinion, be on your guard; you will probably find, on examination, that your belief is going beyond what the evidence warrants. Bertrand Russell
#12
McLovin
- Cutlery Enthusiast
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 2,828
- Joined: 19-March 04
- Location:Dallas, Texas, USA
- Interests:Knives. Stabbing. Stabbing with knives.
Posted 10 January 2006 - 07:23 PM
I've only read PSS, never got round to the others though they sound interesting. I enjoy his prose but sometimes it struck me as all style, no substance. Though I see SM's point about it helping evoke the setting...
#13
Tes'thesula
- High House My House
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 410
- Joined: 09-June 05
Posted 10 January 2006 - 10:17 PM
i would have to agree with longhorn...Mieveille can write, but i thought the plot itself of PSS was weak, and the ending especially poor. None of characters really attracted me either, so i doubt that i will read any of his other books, doesn't seem worth the money or effort. Style is all well and good, but it needs to supplement a story
#14
Brys
- Fist
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 218
- Joined: 02-August 05
Posted 11 January 2006 - 06:02 PM
Harold Bloom said:
Mieville is writing all those books to show that elves and dwarves are silly? Brilliant! I can't wait till they take on the harlequin romance.
No, I'm saying that it's hypocritical to think that khepri are silly and elves aren't. Neither are real, so both are equally valid in fantasy. That isn't the reason Mieville's writing the books, as far as I know.
I was replying to this, which I simply don't understand. Aren't these creatures part of what fantasy is about?
Quote
His lobsters and cactusmen and anophelii should be thouroughly silly
#15 Guest_Harold Bloom_*
Posted 11 January 2006 - 08:14 PM
Brys said:
No, I'm saying that it's [ridiculous] to think that khepri are silly and elves aren't. Neither are real, so both are equally valid in fantasy.
It is easier to suspend disbelief for elves because they stem from the Western mythos. Moreover, they are almost human. The idea of humanoid lobsters and cacti is silly and I believe that is the point. Elves and dwarves are not startling enough for a surrealist so Mieville writes about more unusual beings to set up a greater tension between our reality and a world that seems impossible. Perhaps by drawing from Egyptian mythology rather than from the mythos of Europe, Mieville is also trying to challenge our cultural hierarchy.
#16
Matrim
- Sergeant
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 79
- Joined: 22-September 03
Posted 17 January 2006 - 04:07 PM
I am just rereading Perdido Street Station and The Scar and I think Mieville is a flawed genius. He often tries too hard and overdoes descriptions, in some way his imagination is too much ahead of his actual process of writing so he ends up incuding many things and ideas that he never develops properly in the books. That said he is really different from pretty much everything I have read, I love his prose, some of his characters are brilliantly developed and the worldbuliding is supreme - New Crobuzon is like a living organism in PSS, it's scary how real and depressing he has made it look. I am definitely going to read Iron Council soon.
#17
Abyss
- abyssus abyssum invocat
-
- Group: Administrators
- Posts: 22,409
- Joined: 22-May 03
- Location:The call is coming from inside the house!!!!
- Interests:Interesting.
Posted 07 February 2006 - 09:41 PM
So, just finished LOOKING FOR JAKE.
Fun read. At times brilliantly creepy. Other times less so. he does take some novel ideas into interesting places, and one or two of the stories play out in a way that makes you go back and read it again in view of how it ended.
Some weaker stories dragged. The 'Perdido' continuity story about Jack Half-a-prayer is not the strongest story in the book, nor would i say 'The Tain', the full novella, was that amazing. Still, if you enjoy Mieville, it's at least worth reading. If you're on the fence about him, it's probably not going to make you jump one way or the other.
Anyone else read this/have thoughts?
- Abyss, off Ikea forever.
And yes, that's an inside joke you'll only get if you read it.
Fun read. At times brilliantly creepy. Other times less so. he does take some novel ideas into interesting places, and one or two of the stories play out in a way that makes you go back and read it again in view of how it ended.
Some weaker stories dragged. The 'Perdido' continuity story about Jack Half-a-prayer is not the strongest story in the book, nor would i say 'The Tain', the full novella, was that amazing. Still, if you enjoy Mieville, it's at least worth reading. If you're on the fence about him, it's probably not going to make you jump one way or the other.
Anyone else read this/have thoughts?
- Abyss, off Ikea forever.
And yes, that's an inside joke you'll only get if you read it.
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
#18
Morgoth
- executor emeritus
-
- Group: High House Mafia
- Posts: 11,448
- Joined: 24-January 03
- Location:the void
Posted 08 February 2006 - 11:42 AM
I truly enjoyed 'Looking for Jake'. Some of his stories made me put down the book and just gaze at the wall thinking for long periods of time. He is in my opinion very gifted at creating atmospheres and generating emotions in his stories. 'The ball room' made me shiver on several occasions.
And that story he did with the living streets was.... odd, and I couldn't shake of the question; "did he actually receive this?..Nah, it's just a writing trick.. or.." As with the little description of that brainfever thingy.. wormwood wasn't it? Or something similar..
In some ways, 'Looking for Jake' reminded me of 'smoke and mirrors' by Gaiman. Both authors are very gifted at writing short stories I think, and create somewhat similar, dark moods in their stories.
And that story he did with the living streets was.... odd, and I couldn't shake of the question; "did he actually receive this?..Nah, it's just a writing trick.. or.."
As with the little description of that brainfever thingy.. wormwood wasn't it? Or something similar..In some ways, 'Looking for Jake' reminded me of 'smoke and mirrors' by Gaiman. Both authors are very gifted at writing short stories I think, and create somewhat similar, dark moods in their stories.
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#19
Abyss
- abyssus abyssum invocat
-
- Group: Administrators
- Posts: 22,409
- Joined: 22-May 03
- Location:The call is coming from inside the house!!!!
- Interests:Interesting.
Posted 08 February 2006 - 02:06 PM
I did like the streets story a lot. Very clever idea, and the way its delivered is brilliant. 'Ball Room' was outright creepy.
The more i think about it, 'Jack' really puts some of the events related second hand in Iron Council in a whole different light.
- Abyss, wants his own pet street.
The more i think about it, 'Jack' really puts some of the events related second hand in Iron Council in a whole different light.
- Abyss, wants his own pet street.
THIS IS YOUR REMINDER THAT THERE IS A
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
'VIEW NEW CONTENT' BUTTON THAT
ALLOWS YOU TO VIEW NEW CONTENT
#20 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 07 March 2006 - 12:17 AM
Well, at least he and mmr. SE are writing stories in which the different races aren't inherently "good" or "evil", they just are, and some do things perceived as good, others... well
Unlike feist and many others with the dark elves and the elves of the light...
And indeed, Miéville tries on a new style which might feel unnatural to some, but I adored it so I guess it's kinda subjective.
Unlike feist and many others with the dark elves and the elves of the light...
And indeed, Miéville tries on a new style which might feel unnatural to some, but I adored it so I guess it's kinda subjective.
