[Salt-Man Z]

The funny thing about Card is that Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead together are basically a treatise on empathizing with and loving the Other. It's a shame that the author's personal beliefs have somehow become more important the actual message of the books...

[Abyss]

Salt-Man Z, on 13 September 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

The funny thing about Card is that Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead together are basically a treatise on empathizing with and loving the Other. It's a shame that the author's personal beliefs have somehow become more important the actual message of the books...

That's a sad part about it.
Those books were published years before his views became public, iirc.

[Salt-Man Z]

Abyss, on 13 September 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Those books were published years before his views became public, iirc.

Right. People usually trot out a couple of quotes from the (I think) early 00s, but those books were published in '85-'86. Heck, the 80s and 90s even saw a few of his books with gay protagonists, though some people have some understandable reservations with how they were presented.

[QuickTidal]

Salt-Man Z, on 13 September 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 13 September 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

It should be noted that a vehement, angry climate change denier like Asher...should not be writing science fiction...because if we all thought as he does about our planet we will never GET to the future.

This is such a nonsensical statement I don't even know where to start. I'll just say that, having only read one Asher book, I don't think I'd want to live in his future anyway.

...

Okay, in hindsight, you're right, it was a nonsensical statement. I'll freely admit to my anger over his online personality has long over-rode my ability to probably comment sensibly and I ought to have kept my mouth shut. I'l take the hit on that. I remember being severely disappointed to learn of his views and that helped push me over the edge into really disliking the man.

Quote

Okay, I'll also say that I don't see what his views on climate change have to do with his ability to write about aliens, A.I., and body horror (my three-term summary of Dark Intelligence.)

It's a respect thing with me. I can't respect him as a person because of what he's selling of himself online to his fans and those following his social media presence, and that bleeds into what he's writing about for me (our future; whether it's a nice one or not). Would I feel the same about a fantasy writer who was a climate change denier? Possibly, I don't know. I've not yet encountered one. But it's like when everyone who loved Adam Baldwin in Firefly (the sheer amount of Jane hats I used to see peppering comic con), found out after the fact what a right wing nut job he actually is, making his portrayal as an altruistic guy in a heroic fighting future seem all the more flawed in retrospect. That probably makes no sense, but it is what it is.

I'll go further and say this:

Authors need to understand that in this day and age they are selling not just their work, but their brand. Just like any other famous person. Every single thing you do and how you present yourself online is and can be used as a metric for whether someone is going to buy your wares or your art. It is within my rights to decide against giving you money if I disagree with the brand you've been selling online. Asher's brand includes strong, argumentative climate change denial...and I can't respect him as a result and can't respect what art he is producing nor will I buy it. Are they good stories (I've read exactly one, it was pretty mediocre)? They may be but I'll never know.

Now, obviously lots of people have no issues separating the artist from the art...and that's fine. It's simply something I could never do,

But yes, I likely should have kept my thoughts to myself as they didn't really apply here. Apologies to all involved in this branched topic discussion.

[amphibian]

Salt-Man Z, on 13 September 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

The funny thing about Card is that Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead together are basically a treatise on empathizing with and loving the Other. It's a shame that the author's personal beliefs have somehow become more important the actual message of the books...

It's more like the "overlooked persecuted genius kid/Jesus analogy empathizes with everyone better than anyone else ever and we need to do it like that".

Then the rest slide into blithering. Card's not a good author, even if Ender's Game is a fairly good book.

[Macros]

Blegh, we've had this out about my views on Revelations space science before, regardless of Reynolds background, its not tangible science in any shape or form (and don't give me the theoretically sound bullshit either, manys a theory has been disproven as science has advanced), like I said last time, I don't need to hear all that shit, just make the ship go fast and blow shit up.

anyhow, since it seems Matter is a bad place to start I'm going to hunt on amazon preowned for some of the other culture books.
in the mean time I realised I still have Abercrombies Half a world trilogy sitting to read, so will start on it tonight.

Finished Stardust this morning. Enjoyable little book, i watched the film a few years ago and enjoyed it, the book is somewhat darker in places, but I just love Gaimens writting, I would have been more than happy if there had of been some of the padding the film added to stretch this read out longer for me

[QuickTidal]

Macros, on 13 September 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

Finished Stardust this morning. Enjoyable little book, i watched the film a few years ago and enjoyed it, the book is somewhat darker in places, but I just love Gaimens writting, I would have been more than happy if there had of been some of the padding the film added to stretch this read out longer for me

Glad you liked it. The ending has one of my favourite lines in a book.

Spoiler

“Have been unavoidably detained by the world. Expect us when you see us.”

[Blend]

Am on the 3rd book of The Expanse Series (Abaddon's Gate) and I'm finding this one a little tough compared to the first two. Guess I'm just not that interested in debating the theological aspects of the protomolecule, which this books basically revolves around... Ah well, only a little under 100 pages to go!

[Macros]

Doing an organise of my room, notably bookshelf (being gernous to the shambolic heap of books in the corner of my room)
I actually have 4 Banks novels, none of which I bought, Whit, Matter, Compliance and A Song of something or other.
alas it seems none of these are Culture novels excepting Matter which I've been advised ro avoid, so will still do a bit of digging on Amazon here now.

[acesn8s]

I finished Hawkwood's Voyage and have moved right on to The Heretic Kings. The series is excellent, so far. Can't wait to see what happens next.

[Puck]

Finished the Liveship Traders trilogy. It was excellent, I loved it much more than Farseer. But again, the second book was the best, imo. Seems to be a pattern with Hobb.

On to The Tawny Man, before I take a break from this series.

[Andorion]

Macros, on 13 September 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

Doing an organise of my room, notably bookshelf (being gernous to the shambolic heap of books in the corner of my room)
I actually have 4 Banks novels, none of which I bought, Whit, Matter, Compliance and A Song of something or other.
alas it seems none of these are Culture novels excepting Matter which I've been advised ro avoid, so will still do a bit of digging on Amazon here now.

The best Culture book of the top of my head is Excession.

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 13 September 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 13 September 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 13 September 2016 - 01:21 PM, said:

It should be noted that a vehement, angry climate change denier like Asher...should not be writing science fiction...because if we all thought as he does about our planet we will never GET to the future.

This is such a nonsensical statement I don't even know where to start. I'll just say that, having only read one Asher book, I don't think I'd want to live in his future anyway.

...

Okay, in hindsight, you're right, it was a nonsensical statement. I'll freely admit to my anger over his online personality has long over-rode my ability to probably comment sensibly and I ought to have kept my mouth shut. I'l take the hit on that. I remember being severely disappointed to learn of his views and that helped push me over the edge into really disliking the man.

Quote

Okay, I'll also say that I don't see what his views on climate change have to do with his ability to write about aliens, A.I., and body horror (my three-term summary of Dark Intelligence.)

It's a respect thing with me. I can't respect him as a person because of what he's selling of himself online to his fans and those following his social media presence, and that bleeds into what he's writing about for me (our future; whether it's a nice one or not). Would I feel the same about a fantasy writer who was a climate change denier? Possibly, I don't know. I've not yet encountered one. But it's like when everyone who loved Adam Baldwin in Firefly (the sheer amount of Jane hats I used to see peppering comic con), found out after the fact what a right wing nut job he actually is, making his portrayal as an altruistic guy in a heroic fighting future seem all the more flawed in retrospect. That probably makes no sense, but it is what it is.

I'll go further and say this:

Authors need to understand that in this day and age they are selling not just their work, but their brand. Just like any other famous person. Every single thing you do and how you present yourself online is and can be used as a metric for whether someone is going to buy your wares or your art. It is within my rights to decide against giving you money if I disagree with the brand you've been selling online. Asher's brand includes strong, argumentative climate change denial...and I can't respect him as a result and can't respect what art he is producing nor will I buy it. Are they good stories (I've read exactly one, it was pretty mediocre)? They may be but I'll never know.

Now, obviously lots of people have no issues separating the artist from the art...and that's fine. It's simply something I could never do,

But yes, I likely should have kept my thoughts to myself as they didn't really apply here. Apologies to all involved in this branched topic discussion.

To get into this discussion:

About Asher's future: I don't know, I found it extremely interesting, like the dark alternative to Culture where super AI's are not omni benevolent but authoritarian. As an SF idea I think its a good one to explore and I think Asher does this to an extent.

About climate change denial, author's personal views and their work, QT I know your opinion about this pretty clearly and I believe we have discussed this in the past. But to be perfectly honest, I have read and reread the Polity books and I have yet to find any reflection of his climate views in the books. And for me that is more or less enough to make the books readable. I mean I think you seriously overestimate the influence an author like Asher can exercise with his views.

I find the idea about separating art from artist very interesting as its something I do often. One of my favourite popcorn reads are military SF specifically focused on large scale space battles and at least for the moment this sub-genre is monopolised by slightly right wing to extreme right wing authors. Usually unless the author aggressively pushes his politics repeatedly into the book. I have dropped books because of this while on the other hand when the author has a lighter touch I have been able to just focus on the explosions.

[worry]

I'm pretty sure William Shakespeare didn't believe in climate change either. You gonna bash him too??

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 14 September 2016 - 03:06 AM, said:

Macros, on 13 September 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

Doing an organise of my room, notably bookshelf (being gernous to the shambolic heap of books in the corner of my room)
I actually have 4 Banks novels, none of which I bought, Whit, Matter, Compliance and A Song of something or other.
alas it seems none of these are Culture novels excepting Matter which I've been advised ro avoid, so will still do a bit of digging on Amazon here now.

The best Culture book of the top of my head is Excession.

I agree, but I think it's best approached after Consider Phlebas, Player of Games, Use of Weapons, and at least one other. The best bits need some acclimation to the "Culture" before they get their oomph.

Part of Excession's dynamic is that there are people/minds that do other than normal things even within the large range of "normal" that the Culture has. So establishing that "normal" range with the other books is crucial.

[Andorion]

amphibian, on 14 September 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

Andorion, on 14 September 2016 - 03:06 AM, said:

Macros, on 13 September 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

Doing an organise of my room, notably bookshelf (being gernous to the shambolic heap of books in the corner of my room)
I actually have 4 Banks novels, none of which I bought, Whit, Matter, Compliance and A Song of something or other.
alas it seems none of these are Culture novels excepting Matter which I've been advised ro avoid, so will still do a bit of digging on Amazon here now.

The best Culture book of the top of my head is Excession.

I agree, but I think it's best approached after Consider Phlebas, Player of Games, Use of Weapons, and at least one other. The best bits need some acclimation to the "Culture" before they get their oomph.

Part of Excession's dynamic is that there are people/minds that do other than normal things even within the large range of "normal" that the Culture has. So establishing that "normal" range with the other books is crucial.

Yeah greater background and more familiarisation with the world is always better. I just consider Excession to be the tightest Culture story

[Puck]

High Geek of Crawfish, on 14 September 2016 - 01:15 AM, said:

Puck, on 13 September 2016 - 08:18 PM, said:

Finished the Liveship Traders trilogy. It was excellent, I loved it much more than Farseer. But again, the second book was the best, imo. Seems to be a pattern with Hobb.

On to The Tawny Man, before I take a break from this series.

I'm patiently waiting for Fitz 7-9 in PB then I'm a be all over it!

I think we're using different terms, because otherwise that makes no sense. Books 7-9 of the Realm of the Elderlings series are The Tawny Man trilogy. But those have been out in paperback for 10+ years. If you are talking about about the Fitz and the Fool trilogy, it's not even published completely. But those would be books 14-16, unless you're not counting almost half the setting's continuity.

Colour me confused.

This post has been edited by Puck: 14 September 2016 - 07:33 AM

[QuickTidal]

Puck, on 14 September 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

High Geek of Crawfish, on 14 September 2016 - 01:15 AM, said:

Puck, on 13 September 2016 - 08:18 PM, said:

Finished the Liveship Traders trilogy. It was excellent, I loved it much more than Farseer. But again, the second book was the best, imo. Seems to be a pattern with Hobb.

On to The Tawny Man, before I take a break from this series.

I'm patiently waiting for Fitz 7-9 in PB then I'm a be all over it!

I think we're using different terms, because otherwise that makes no sense. Books 7-9 of the Realm of the Elderlings series are The Tawny Man trilogy. But those have been out in paperback for 10+ years. If you are talking about about the Fitz and the Fool trilogy, it's not even published completely. But those would be books 14-16, unless you're not counting almost half the setting's continuity.

Colour me confused.

BK means the Fitz books only (no Liveship), so we have Assassins Apprentice, Royal Assasin, Assassins Quest, Fool's Errand, Golden Fool, Fool's Fate, Fool's Assasin, Fool's Quest, and the as yet released Assassin's Fate (the last three of which he is waiting to come out in paperback before he starts).

[Puck]

QuickTidal, on 14 September 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Puck, on 14 September 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

High Geek of Crawfish, on 14 September 2016 - 01:15 AM, said:

Puck, on 13 September 2016 - 08:18 PM, said:

Finished the Liveship Traders trilogy. It was excellent, I loved it much more than Farseer. But again, the second book was the best, imo. Seems to be a pattern with Hobb.

On to The Tawny Man, before I take a break from this series.

I'm patiently waiting for Fitz 7-9 in PB then I'm a be all over it!

I think we're using different terms, because otherwise that makes no sense. Books 7-9 of the Realm of the Elderlings series are The Tawny Man trilogy. But those have been out in paperback for 10+ years. If you are talking about about the Fitz and the Fool trilogy, it's not even published completely. But those would be books 14-16, unless you're not counting almost half the setting's continuity.

Colour me confused.

BK means the Fitz books only (no Liveship), so we have Assassins Apprentice, Royal Assasin, Assassins Quest, Fool's Errand, Golden Fool, Fool's Fate, Fool's Assasin, Fool's Quest, and the as yet released Assassin's Fate (the last three of which he is waiting to come out in paperback before he starts).

Ah, makes sense. Just the first time I see them counted separately from the overall continuity.

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 14 September 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

To get into this discussion:

About Asher's future: I don't know, I found it extremely interesting, like the dark alternative to Culture where super AI's are not omni benevolent but authoritarian. As an SF idea I think its a good one to explore and I think Asher does this to an extent.

About climate change denial, author's personal views and their work, QT I know your opinion about this pretty clearly and I believe we have discussed this in the past. But to be perfectly honest, I have read and reread the Polity books and I have yet to find any reflection of his climate views in the books. And for me that is more or less enough to make the books readable. I mean I think you seriously overestimate the influence an author like Asher can exercise with his views.

I find the idea about separating art from artist very interesting as its something I do often. One of my favourite popcorn reads are military SF specifically focused on large scale space battles and at least for the moment this sub-genre is monopolised by slightly right wing to extreme right wing authors. Usually unless the author aggressively pushes his politics repeatedly into the book. I have dropped books because of this while on the other hand when the author has a lighter touch I have been able to just focus on the explosions.

It's less about the net he gets to cast with his views (AKA his readership, and his fellow right wingers) and more about it being front and centre in what he's selling as a brand. It may not enter into or temper his work itself...but I can't get by his big ego about it to ignore it.

I should clarify that a main driving reason behind my feelings about this with regards to him and other authors who are on my Won'tRead list, stem largely from when I was running my review blog a number of years ago. I tried my very best to keep an even keel with my reviews and my social media presence, and be as balanced as possible (even with negative reviews)...but I encountered a fair number of newer authors whose personal snark/soapbox views not only were displayed proudly on their social interactions, but as a blogger I was very much on the front line of the notions being spouted. I literally saw it day in day out on every social media wing we had running (mostly twitter...which is why I no longer have a twitter account) and it was visceral, upsetting, and most of all caustic. It soured me on reviewing books entirely. And I had quite enjoyed reviewing books (and TV)...but after my nth encounter with an author with either a nasty personality or views very much opposed to mine who openly and happily displayed that behaviour and in some cases aimed their nastiness directly at me, I'd had enough. We jettisoned the review site, I ditched my twitter account, and steered clear of most of the contacts I'd made there (I've kept a very few, mostly other bloggers). I've gone back to reading just for pleasure, and even on my GoodReads account I post very minimally and my reviews are usually a paragraph at best. But I can't forget the authors who either treated me poorly, or I saw treat others poorly, or express opinions which I didn't agree with in hindsight.

I get that doesn't make oodles of sense, and my opinions on the subject are very skewed as a result, but I can't help how I feel about it. Beyond that, I'm sure there are authors I currently read who have internal personal opinions I might/probably disagree with....but if it's not on display and I don't know about it, I don't have to try to separate the author from the work. That's the difference. Which again I realize doesn't make a whole heap of sense. *shrug*

worry, on 14 September 2016 - 03:35 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure William Shakespeare didn't believe in climate change either. You gonna bash him too??

I'll bash him for other reasons. Mostly for not being clear about being the author of my favourite Shakespeare volume, TITUS ANDRONICUS. The bastard!

Also, he didn't have the science in front of him (I say this knowing full well you're being facetious).