[Andorion]

Finished Claw of the Conciliator

Several things are annoying me

Spoiler

Why did Severian think the Androgyn was the Autarch?


Wolfe has this tendency of dropping in large, important events with no explanation whatsoever.

There was no explanation for how Severian went from being separated from Dorcas at the gate at the end of the last book to how he ended up with Jonas in this book

Is Severian a sociopath? He sleeps with Jolenta in a totally nonchalant manner. Also he seems to 'love' alarmingly fast. Also why is Dorcas so docile?

The transcription of the play really confused me.

The ending was very confusing and I have no idea what happened. They carried Jolenta to the stone tower where the women and Cumaen resided. Hildegrin randomly shows up. They do a ritual. Why? What happened?

[Abyss]

Macros, on 05 January 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

On to wrath of a mad god.
I realise now this is as far as I had read before.
I realised it just there now.
Feist you lazy
Lazy
Lazy
Lazy
Son of a bitch.

If you're going to constantly reference previous works, take the time to at least get some of your info right.
Pug spouting off about how the serpent war tested the kingdom to the limit, and drops in the figure of 40,000 soldiers coming from novindus.
Despite pages of rage of a demon king being devoted to telling us how she had an army of 1/4 a million men. Hell she had 20,000 saurr, let alone her human armies.
Constant referencing on kelewan too, most of it wrong.
How can a casual fan like myself catch so much inaccurate canon in a world that the author helped correct, and about stories that he fucking wrote?? The last 2 books have been riddled with inconsistencies, some things being mis represented from one book to the next. Did he not proof read? Does he not have beta readers?
Editors?
Friends?
Bueller?
Anyone?

Hah, 5 1/2 books of pain to go

Macros, on 05 January 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

The next page.
The next fucking page
Kaspar has had no dealings with elves before.
Really?
WHAT ABOUT THAT TIME HE WAS IN ELVANDAR YOU LAZY CUNT

Stop. Just stop.
You're only hurting yourself.

[firvulag]

Macros, on 05 January 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

On to wrath of a mad god.
I realise now this is as far as I had read before.
I realised it just there now.
Feist you lazy
Lazy
Lazy
Lazy
Son of a bitch.

If you're going to constantly reference previous works, take the time to at least get some of your info right.
Pug spouting off about how the serpent war tested the kingdom to the limit, and drops in the figure of 40,000 soldiers coming from novindus.
Despite pages of rage of a demon king being devoted to telling us how she had an army of 1/4 a million men. Hell she had 20,000 saurr, let alone her human armies.
Constant referencing on kelewan too, most of it wrong.
How can a casual fan like myself catch so much inaccurate canon in a world that the author helped correct, and about stories that he fucking wrote?? The last 2 books have been riddled with inconsistencies, some things being mis represented from one book to the next. Did he not proof read? Does he not have beta readers?
Editors?
Friends?
Bueller?
Anyone?

Hah, 5 1/2 books of pain to go

Macros, on 05 January 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

The next page.
The next fucking page
Kaspar has had no dealings with elves before.
Really?
WHAT ABOUT THAT TIME HE WAS IN ELVANDAR YOU LAZY CUNT

Since the whole of the Riftwar series was finished 2 years ago I've been toying with going back to them and reading them all in one massive go. Looking at the books recently I realised that I've read more than not, but only just. Seeing comments like this is making me reconsider and wondering if I just shouldn't bother.


To be fair, those books I did read I enjoyed, especially Servant of the Empire trilogy and rage of a mad god 4 book series.

[Morgoth]

Andorion, on 05 January 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

Finished Claw of the Conciliator

Several things are annoying me

Spoiler

Why did Severian think the Androgyn was the Autarch?


Wolfe has this tendency of dropping in large, important events with no explanation whatsoever.

There was no explanation for how Severian went from being separated from Dorcas at the gate at the end of the last book to how he ended up with Jonas in this book

Is Severian a sociopath? He sleeps with Jolenta in a totally nonchalant manner. Also he seems to 'love' alarmingly fast. Also why is Dorcas so docile?

The transcription of the play really confused me.

The ending was very confusing and I have no idea what happened. They carried Jolenta to the stone tower where the women and Cumaen resided. Hildegrin randomly shows up. They do a ritual. Why? What happened?

Severian is the narrator and he is not to be trusted. He omits, he downplays and he lies.

[Salt-Man Z]

Most of these things are either answered right there in CLAW, or are RAFOs. I'll put my answers in bold in the spoiler tag:

Andorion, on 05 January 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

Finished Claw of the Conciliator

Several things are annoying me

Spoiler

Why did Severian think the Androgyn was the Autarch?

From Thecla's memories, as mentioned at the time. She had lived in the House Absolute and had had dealings with the Autarch before.

Wolfe has this tendency of dropping in large, important events with no explanation whatsoever.

There was no explanation for how Severian went from being separated from Dorcas at the gate at the end of the last book to how he ended up with Jonas in this book

There's no given explanation for the event that separated the group, but over the course of the series, there will be other events that would lead one to certain theories... (I won't get into exact details here.) However, it is discussed within CLAW (I just finished it over the weekend) in a couple of spots that the group (including Jonas, who was travelling with them at the end of SHADOW) was split up during the confusion at the Piteous Gate. Severian and Jonas took one road, Talos and company, with Dorcas in tow, ended up on another.

Is Severian a sociopath? He sleeps with Jolenta in a totally nonchalant manner. Also he seems to 'love' alarmingly fast. Also why is Dorcas so docile?

Probably yes to the first one. Notice how many times he constantly goes over the list of women he's "loved" in such a short period of time. He was raised pretty sheltered, so maybe he gets unnaturally attached to every women he runs into. Or he could just be a creep.

As for Dorcas, remember that she has no memory of who or what she was before meeting Severian at the Lake of Birds such a short time ago. She's lost, desperate for answers and companionship, and more than a little afraid. (It only occurs to me now that Dorcas reads as an inverse of Severian.)

The transcription of the play really confused me.

I would expect nothing less. It contains a lot of foreshadowing of some things which are made much more clear in URTH. Certainly don't sweat it on your first read.

The ending was very confusing and I have no idea what happened. They carried Jolenta to the stone tower where the women and Cumaen resided. Hildegrin randomly shows up. They do a ritual. Why? What happened?

Remember Hildegrin gave Severian his card at the Lake of Birds: his specialty is "excavations". In this case, he was digging up the ghost of Apu-Punchau; certainly a nice addition to his resume! I should point out that the Cumaean doesn't "reside" in the stone town; recall Hildegrin's comments at the Lake of Birds of her cave across the lake. She's only at the tower to help Hildegrin with his mission. The reason for the ritual is given by Hildegrin: remember that the goal of Vodalus et al is to return Urth to its former glory; to that end, they are attempting to resurrect a wise man from ancient times. As for what actually happened there, it will be all but explicitly answered by Severian himself in the final pages of book four.

I'd certainly be more than happy to discuss things in more detail via PM once you're done with CITADEL (or, optionally, URTH.)

[Mentalist]

I need to slot in a New Sun re-read in my schedule (and read the Coda for the first time). Maybe after I read FoL.

[Andorion]

Salt-Man Z, on 05 January 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

Most of these things are either answered right there in CLAW, or are RAFOs. I'll put my answers in bold in the spoiler tag:

Andorion, on 05 January 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

Finished Claw of the Conciliator

Several things are annoying me

Spoiler

Why did Severian think the Androgyn was the Autarch?

From Thecla's memories, as mentioned at the time. She had lived in the House Absolute and had had dealings with the Autarch before.

Wolfe has this tendency of dropping in large, important events with no explanation whatsoever.

There was no explanation for how Severian went from being separated from Dorcas at the gate at the end of the last book to how he ended up with Jonas in this book

There's no given explanation for the event that separated the group, but over the course of the series, there will be other events that would lead one to certain theories... (I won't get into exact details here.) However, it is discussed within CLAW (I just finished it over the weekend) in a couple of spots that the group (including Jonas, who was travelling with them at the end of SHADOW) was split up during the confusion at the Piteous Gate. Severian and Jonas took one road, Talos and company, with Dorcas in tow, ended up on another.

Is Severian a sociopath? He sleeps with Jolenta in a totally nonchalant manner. Also he seems to 'love' alarmingly fast. Also why is Dorcas so docile?

Probably yes to the first one. Notice how many times he constantly goes over the list of women he's "loved" in such a short period of time. He was raised pretty sheltered, so maybe he gets unnaturally attached to every women he runs into. Or he could just be a creep.

As for Dorcas, remember that she has no memory of who or what she was before meeting Severian at the Lake of Birds such a short time ago. She's lost, desperate for answers and companionship, and more than a little afraid. (It only occurs to me now that Dorcas reads as an inverse of Severian.)

The transcription of the play really confused me.

I would expect nothing less. It contains a lot of foreshadowing of some things which are made much more clear in URTH. Certainly don't sweat it on your first read.

The ending was very confusing and I have no idea what happened. They carried Jolenta to the stone tower where the women and Cumaen resided. Hildegrin randomly shows up. They do a ritual. Why? What happened?

Remember Hildegrin gave Severian his card at the Lake of Birds: his specialty is "excavations". In this case, he was digging up the ghost of Apu-Punchau; certainly a nice addition to his resume! I should point out that the Cumaean doesn't "reside" in the stone town; recall Hildegrin's comments at the Lake of Birds of her cave across the lake. She's only at the tower to help Hildegrin with his mission. The reason for the ritual is given by Hildegrin: remember that the goal of Vodalus et al is to return Urth to its former glory; to that end, they are attempting to resurrect a wise man from ancient times. As for what actually happened there, it will be all but explicitly answered by Severian himself in the final pages of book four.

I'd certainly be more than happy to discuss things in more detail via PM once you're done with CITADEL (or, optionally, URTH.)

Thanks!

Spoiler

I really should have made the Lake of Birds connection myself.
I keep on forgetting that he has a chunk of Thecla in his head. I should be allowing for extra info/perspective to pop in occasionally

Pretty sure Severian is a sociopath now. Kind of intriguing actually. Don't know that many 1st person PoVs of sociopaths.

So,
just trying to make sense of the overall plot -- Vodalus wants to resurrect past glories, the Autarch is also in on this? So that must mean the Autarch is secretly working against the governing interest which is probably controlled by Father Inire. Also there is a large probably alien underwater civ who are key to this resurrection and for some reason are obsessed with Severian



Also I initially thought New and Old Suns were references to a binary star system or that the planet has a really wonky orbit.

But there were references to something eating away at the core of the star, so now I am thinking of stars collapsing, Neutron stars and black holes. Or is it not natural? Is some advanced civ causing instability in the Sun through technology?

[Salt-Man Z]

Mentalist, on 05 January 2016 - 05:30 PM, said:

I need to slot in a New Sun re-read in my schedule (and read the Coda for the first time). Maybe after I read FoL.

Do it. Doooo eeeeet.

Urth is a strange book. The BotNS is complete in itself without Urth, but Urth really wraps up a lot of things that were maybe just hinted at in the series proper, and makes them explicit. It also manages to be much more concrete science fiction but with heavy religious overtones, in stark contrast to the fantasy feel of the rest of the series. Some people hate it, and I wasn't sure what to make of it after the first read, but since then I've grown to love it. It has a very...transcendent feel to it. As a coda, it's still fairly optional, but I find it enriches the entire cycle.

[Stormcat]

I finally picked up Willful Child.

[polishgenius]

I really like much of Urth taken in its own right, but I feel it makes parts of the original series a little too obvious. Like I say, half the joy is in figuring things out for yourself what's going on, and Urth nails some (nowhere near all, mind) down and goes 'this.This is what's going on.'.



Anyway, I started a book today called Monument, by Ian Graham. It's a book that was originally published in 2002 but has recently got a re-publication/first ebook release (I think because the author has more things coming). A lot of fun, so far- it's the sort of book that probably came just too early to find real success - if it'd hit the shelves post-Abercrombie, I could see it making waves, but back in 2002 that sort of thing was still struggling to find its feet.

Basically, the main character, a man of no redeeming features whatsoever - not even coolness or badassery, he's a fat, ugly, often-incompetent slob - who is nonetheless a pleasure to spend time with, somehow, steals an artifact from a man who helped him when he was in trouble and kicks off a chain of events that lands him in really really deep shit.

[Macros]

firvulag, on 05 January 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

Macros, on 05 January 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

On to wrath of a mad god.
I realise now this is as far as I had read before.
I realised it just there now.
Feist you lazy
Lazy
Lazy
Lazy
Son of a bitch.

If you're going to constantly reference previous works, take the time to at least get some of your info right.
Pug spouting off about how the serpent war tested the kingdom to the limit, and drops in the figure of 40,000 soldiers coming from novindus.
Despite pages of rage of a demon king being devoted to telling us how she had an army of 1/4 a million men. Hell she had 20,000 saurr, let alone her human armies.
Constant referencing on kelewan too, most of it wrong.
How can a casual fan like myself catch so much inaccurate canon in a world that the author helped correct, and about stories that he fucking wrote?? The last 2 books have been riddled with inconsistencies, some things being mis represented from one book to the next. Did he not proof read? Does he not have beta readers?
Editors?
Friends?
Bueller?
Anyone?

Hah, 5 1/2 books of pain to go

Macros, on 05 January 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

The next page.
The next fucking page
Kaspar has had no dealings with elves before.
Really?
WHAT ABOUT THAT TIME HE WAS IN ELVANDAR YOU LAZY CUNT

Since the whole of the Riftwar series was finished 2 years ago I've been toying with going back to them and reading them all in one massive go. Looking at the books recently I realised that I've read more than not, but only just. Seeing comments like this is making me reconsider and wondering if I just shouldn't bother.


To be fair, those books I did read I enjoyed, especially Servant of the Empire trilogy and rage of a mad god 4 book series.

Go as far as rage of a demon king chronologically and stop your reread

[Salt-Man Z]

Briar King, on 06 January 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

Salt what's the reading order for Solar bks? I don't look stuff like that up to avoid reading a spoiler.

New > Long > Short

Probably. That's publication order. Short is a direct sequel to Long. (I haven't read Short yet, but I do know that much.)

[T77]

Salt-Man Z, on 06 January 2016 - 04:28 AM, said:

Briar King, on 06 January 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

Salt what's the reading order for Solar bks? I don't look stuff like that up to avoid reading a spoiler.

New > Long > Short

Probably. That's publication order. Short is a direct sequel to Long. (I haven't read Short yet, but I do know that much.)

You've read New multiple times and never read short? You should get on that soon as it's brilliant and some of his best work.

[amphibian]

Briar King, on 06 January 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

Salt what's the reading order for Solar bks? I don't look stuff like that up to avoid reading a spoiler.

I gave you your answer two pages ago. Sheesh.

I strongly suggest you read the novella Urth of the New Sun after the Book of the New Sun and before the Book of the Long Sun. It's not required, but it makes things much clearer and provides a more complete ending to New Sun.

[champ]

Just finished Warriors of the Storm by Bernard Cornwell - the latest Uhtred book and now on to Cinder Spires!

[Salt-Man Z]

T77, on 06 January 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

You've read New multiple times and never read short? You should get on that soon as it's brilliant and some of his best work.

I know, I know. I keep meaning to, but I feel like I need to reread the Long Sun books first (I never retain that much of my initial read) but they weren't easy reading the first time (especially the second half) so I keep putting it off.

amphibian, on 06 January 2016 - 03:38 PM, said:

I strongly suggest you read the novella Urth of the New Sun after the Book of the New Sun and before the Book of the Long Sun. It's not required, but it makes things much clearer and provides a more complete ending to New Sun.

Yeah, I had originally written my reading order above as New > Urth > Long > Short, but felt it was kind of redundant as I consider Urth part of the BotNS series anyway. (Also I agree 100%--except for the part about Urth being a "novella"; my MMPB is nearly 400 pages.)

[Andorion]

Five chapters into Sword of the Lictor

Not unsurprisingly Severian seems to be messing up his relationship with Dorcas.
I really want to see how this fancy dress party turns out.

Also got slightly sidetracked today and reread some portions from an old favourite - Robert Massie's Castles of Steel. I love naval history.

[Macros]

Just finished wrath of a mad god.

Bad enough his canon fuck ups, but there were inconsistencies even in the one book, silly things that he need not even mention. Blech. Such a lazy book

If he's going to go to the effort of dragging one of my favourite characters (erik) along for the ride at least have the decency to get his history right. He was such a servant of the crown that he never married? What about Kitty, his wife, that we met many times, infact his smuggling his wife out of krondor was a mini sub plot for Erik's tale.
The empire of the tsuranuanni had (in the magician and servant cycle) 200 million bodies.
At the start of this novel we are told a 20 million figure.
The last few pages? 2 million survive, a survival rate of 1 in 5, now im no maths wizard, but that would mean a base start of 10 million.
Stupid shit like that probably wouldn't have bothered me if it hadn't been for the catalogue of lazy historical canon errors that only appear because of his insistence on constantly refern ing his earlier cycles, which could in theory, outside of the main hitters like pug and co, ce completely ignored as its 50/60 years later or whatever, just say the human cast is dead of old age. Or take 5 minutes and take a cursory glance over a wiki of your characters.
Lazy bastard
5 to go

[amphibian]

It's all the Xmas books we've been reading. This thread is filling up fast.

I've chewed through Robert Jackson Bennett's work (American Elsewhere, which is phenomenal Southwest Cthulu in the suburbs stuff, The Troupe which is a traveling troupe of vaudeville acts with a HIDDEN SECRET) and am reading Martha Wells' Raksura books, which are amazing.

I'm lucky to be reading these books.

[Stalker]

So for stupidest genre that I can't put down - LitRPG. Basically people playing full immersion MMOs and their adventures in that world. These always start with the character having some disadvantage that becomes a huge advantage, sheer luck in finding the right quests / people / loot, and a skimable storyline.


These all seem to be Russian authors being translated to English. Best example is Alterworld by D. Rus (And the following books, though it struggles around book 4. Maybe a translation thing). Lot out there though and I just finished one called Patch 17. Fun, popcorn reading and hard to put down for me. Probably due to my past mmo playing days.