[Maark Abbott]

McLovin, on 18 March 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

The Darkness that Comes Before. Though "bendy demon phalli" should have clued you in.

At this point I'm up to the point where the Emperor is displaying general hubris, but I was warned about the sine-wave Satan cocks when I was asking after the series.

[QuickTidal]

Maark, on 19 March 2015 - 01:23 PM, said:

McLovin, on 18 March 2015 - 04:46 PM, said:

The Darkness that Comes Before. Though "bendy demon phalli" should have clued you in.

At this point I'm up to the point where the Emperor is displaying general hubris, but I was warned about the sine-wave Satan cocks when I was asking after the series.

Also be on the lookout for (ick) black "seed"...*ahem*

[Mentalist]

amphibian, on 19 March 2015 - 02:53 AM, said:

That depends on what you're in the mood for. Bakker's is much more of a trip into a truly dark version of Lord of the Rings + the grimmest Viking/Greek/Hindu tragedies you can imagine. The Thorns trilogy is kind of like a fantasy version of Liam Neeson in Taken, but with a child.

I enjoy them both considerably. Both get undeserved crap flung at them that obscures their genuinely good writing skills.

My take on the issue:

Amph is absolutely correct in the fact that they are drastically different, and that it depends on what you're looking for.

I disgree that both are awesome. Both are somewhat controversial, but neither is truly great, imho.

Lawrence is all about making the main character antihero as vile and as much of a dick as possible. A lot of people think it's bold and edgy cause of this shock value, but I wasn't impressed. He mellows out a bit in Bk 2, by which point the setting (the truly interesting part of the bk, imho) comes into its own. I found the Thorns trilo enjoyable in piecing together what happened to the world. Then book 3 kind of does a serious info dump early on, and then leads you to a final confrontation with a "twist" I saw telegraphed half a book ago.

Bakker, on the other hand... it's a philosophy book wrapped in a fantasy series. Bakker's main character is also quite loathsome--but for what he is, rather than who. The LotR overtones mentioned don't really play a major role till the second trilo. What do the first trilo (Prince of Nothing) does have going for it is the pretty epic fantasy-style re-telling of the First Crusade. Bk 2 is especially strong in that regard.

I'm not sure how I feel about the second trilo. I'm reading it, because I want to see that one character who annoys me to no end die horribly, but really, that series is a definition of "meandering" writ large.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 19 March 2015 - 01:36 PM

[Maark Abbott]

I've read book 1 of Thorns. I have to say, I am fond of dickish villain protagonists (especially when they reach the levels of troll seen in my profile picture)... But then again I am a crass, bitter misanthrope myself. Maybe I just identify more easily with characters at the more hateful end of the spectrum.

[McLovin]

Well, there's some wish fulfillment in villains, right? The ability to tell people off and act like you don't give a flip. Take what you want and not suffer fools. Who hasn't wanted to do that stuff? I'm reading DYNASTY OF EVIL (Darth Bane #3) and DARTH PLAGUEIS currently, so I am getting my villain on big time!

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 19 March 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

...

Which is a better fantasy trilogy to start: Mark Lawrence's Thorns, or Bakker's first three?

'Better'...? Fuck me that's a loaded question.


Bakker is massive armies and existential questions and religious conflicts and essentially the Crusades with Jesus Rasputin and Conan the Barbarian and whores and mages who stroll through the air dropping dragonfire on people's heads. Massive cast of seriously gray characters. Also, black semen.

Lawrence is bandits and revenge and interpersonal conflict and the characters slant even darker for the most part. The cast is smaller, the focus is narrower, it's mostly one pov. And virtually no semen of any particular color.

I think that Bakker tells a bigger and more epic wildly imaginative story, while Lawrence delivers a pov character who draws the reader in to the crazy shit he gets up to and then gradually expands the scope.
Bakker has more whatthefuck?!?, Lawrence has more holyfuck!.

In MBF terms, if you want to read about, say, a homicidal Crokus getting into trouble as he gradually levels up, go with Lawrence. If you want The Bonehunters marching to stab lots of people because NotGod told them to, go with Bakker.

For what it's worth, i read and totally enjoyed Bakker's first trilo more or less back-to-back. I found it different and interesting and one of the few series that came close to the MBF in fantasy epic scope. I had a short break between bks 2 and 3 and it was brutal because i really really wanted to see what would happen. I did not like the fourth book (second trilogy bk1) very much, but thought the second was better (but still dragged in parts), but that said the instant bk6 hits the streets I'm all over it. I do sort of wish i had waited until the second trilo was done before starting it because it felt like the story stopped when it was just getting good and now Bakker is apparently struggling to get bk6 published.

I read and also totally enjoyed Lawrence's Thorns trilo. I read 1 and 2 and would have liked to jump straight into three without a break because they're short, fast reads and i thought the whole was better than the individual parts. I'll read his next series when it's done.


There, now didn't i make that easier?

[Mentalist]

Maark, on 19 March 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

I've read book 1 of Thorns. I have to say, I am fond of dickish villain protagonists (especially when they reach the levels of troll seen in my profile picture)... But then again I am a crass, bitter misanthrope myself. Maybe I just identify more easily with characters at the more hateful end of the spectrum.

See, there's the thing: I don't see see Jorg as a villain. I see him as a dickish brat (like I said, he gets better).
When I think of villain, I think of something else. Right now I just finished "zero point" by asher-now there's a villain! Serene Galahad does some seriouslyscrewed up shit.:

Spoiler

she starts off by wiping out 6 billion people with a virus she's previously implanted into the entire's population ID chips, then orders the entire population to wear choke collars so that she can kill anyone that disobeys her, and then towards the end she plans to sterilize humanity and dispense drugs that allow fertility only to those who "prove worthy". Oh, and she puts people on stakes for hunting a deer that was supposed to be extinct

. At the same time, the way she tries to justify herself makes you you almost nod along, before catching yourself and recoiling in disgust at "wait, did I really just almost endorse THAT"?

Jorg, otoh, acts like a dick, and when prompted to explain himself, just says "life's tough". Yes, later on you get a glimpse at why he's so broken, but nevertheless, I could never shake the impression that Lawrence tried to make Jorg's vileness and the shock value of having an "evil" protagonist be the main defining point of recognition for the series, which didn't really work for me.
That being said, the trilo was Allright, i've found enough in it to enjoy, will probably pick up the 1st book of Red Queen once that trilo's close to completion. Just stressing that I didn't think Lawrence to be anything groundbreaking.

[Andorion]

Oops looks like I broke this thread with that little question. Sigh..... this reminds me of the time I asked whether it would be a good idea to read WoT.

Umm from what I can gather, scope and world wise Bakker rules, while character wise Thorns would probably be more emphatic.


Dammit I guess I am reading both. Though not right now. Just got out of a major epic fantasy read.

And thanks to everybody for all your responses, This is one of the reasons I love this forum.

PS. Abyss, your post actually did make it easier.

[Andorion]

For the moment starting Neal Asher's latest Dark Intelligence

[worry]

For the record, the Thorns trilogy is actually rather short. You could get through the whole thing in the same time it'd take to finish a single Malazan book, I'd wager.

[Tiste Simeon]

QuickTidal, on 19 March 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

amphibian, on 19 March 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 19 March 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

Let me save you a lot of boredom: Don't read Bakker. Seriously. I can give you a 5 minute synopsis of everything that happens in the original trilogy (didn't read books 4 & 5) if you wanted.

No, you cannot do so.

He kind of can. LOL. But then both Tiste and I were completely unimpressed with Bakker...so we might be biased.

Stay strong my enlightened brother!

I'm fairly sure the Bakker problem crops up at least once a year in this thread. Like along with such classics as which GGK book is better? Or is Alera by Jim Butcher a good serie?s (inb4 BK with his usual ranting about it... Yes it is good!) Or how much bad language is too much when discussing the Caine books by Stover?

You Bakker fans can't be right about everything and it's OK to admit it...

This post has been edited by Tiste Simeon: 19 March 2015 - 11:09 PM

[polishgenius]

The Westeros boards have developed a term for when this happens. Let it henceforth be known that this thread has been Bakkaked.

[Maark Abbott]

I haven't been Bakkaked yet don't spoil it for me I want to see the expression on my own face as... Uh, what? What pornographic tangent have you dragged me down now, Polish?

[QuickTidal]

Maark, on 20 March 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

I haven't been Bakkaked yet don't spoil it for me I want to see the expression on my own face as... Uh, what? What pornographic tangent have you dragged me down now, Polish?

See: Afformentioned black *seed* comment, add Bakkaked...and things are not only pornographic but dark and effed up. Sounds like Bakker-town to me.

[Andorion]

Finished Neal Asher's Dark Intelligence. A very satisfying read. Now on to Claire North's Touch. Already read the first two chapters and its fascinating.

[Maark Abbott]

QuickTidal, on 20 March 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

Maark, on 20 March 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

I haven't been Bakkaked yet don't spoil it for me I want to see the expression on my own face as... Uh, what? What pornographic tangent have you dragged me down now, Polish?

See: Afformentioned black *seed* comment, add Bakkaked...and things are not only pornographic but dark and effed up. Sounds like Bakker-town to me.

Well so far we've met Pronounce urs Pronounce but there's still no demon spunk flying about. What gives?

[Lycaenion]

I'm reading Abercrombie's Best Served Cold right now.

[D'iversify]

Maark, on 21 March 2015 - 07:32 AM, said:

Well so far we've met Pronounce urs Pronounce but there's still no demon spunk flying about. What gives?

How is it going given the disappointing lack of demon spunk?

[Maark Abbott]

D, on 21 March 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Maark, on 21 March 2015 - 07:32 AM, said:

Well so far we've met Pronounce urs Pronounce but there's still no demon spunk flying about. What gives?

How is it going given the disappointing lack of demon spunk?

Honestly? A little bit of a slog. The pieces are all there, but... the black glue that should be holding it all together isn't there.

[Andorion]

Touch.... did I say fascinating? Its captivating. Some of the best stuff I have read recently