[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

polishgenius, on 09 February 2021 - 05:29 AM, said:

For your spoiler: does it? I don't remember that what did it do?

Spoiler

One could argue that it just expands on what happens before Tain Hu's death and makes minor changes to the overlapping parts of the narratives. My memory's a bit hazy, but iirc it 'clarifies' that Tain Hu insists on having Baru let her be executed---over Baru's anguished objections---so the cryptarchs won't be able to use Tain Hu as leverage. It drastically softens the ending of the first book. When I first heard it I thought it was a transparent and clumsy attempt to make Baru seem more sympathetic. Granted, it does set up later events....

[polishgenius]

Spoiler

I can't remember exactly what was said when, but I finished book 1 100% certain that Baru execuited Tain Hu because Tain Hu told her to, for exactly that reason. So I guess I didn't notice any intensification of this in book 2.

[Aptorian]

Halfway into Gaunt's Ghosts Book 3. This is a much crazier book in terms of scope.

I'm really puzzled by the strategy employed so far though. Is there no air force in WH40K? I remember reading about air transport but no fighters or bombers. You'd think a million soldiers and 50.000 tanks would make for an easy target. Hell, where's the orbital bombardment? Or just nuke them.

[Macros]

Shields, city covering shields.

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

Chance, on 09 February 2021 - 03:12 PM, said:

Started Glen Cooks The Dragon Never Sleeps and it seems pretty cool so far, some kind of weird space opera.

Thanks for the reminder, I've been meaning to pick that up. It's one of the few of his books I haven't read yet.

[Aptorian]

Macros, on 09 February 2021 - 10:04 PM, said:

Shields, city covering shields.

Sure but the army in the field doesn't have a shield. I don't know, Macros. I don't think these guys are very good at killing each other.

[Maark Abbott]

Aptorian, on 10 February 2021 - 05:26 AM, said:

Macros, on 09 February 2021 - 10:04 PM, said:

Shields, city covering shields.

Sure but the army in the field doesn't have a shield. I don't know, Macros. I don't think these guys are very good at killing each other.

The army in the field doesn't have a shield, so they yield, and no longer their weapons wield.

Wesside

[Macros]

I think they're very good at killing each other.


But yeah there's a few oddities like that, but they pervade the universe.

The why don't you nuke them argument is simple, they want the world taken, and they want it to be useful, not a nuclear wasteland

[Tiste Simeon]

polishgenius, on 09 February 2021 - 06:04 PM, said:

Spoiler

I can't remember exactly what was said when, but I finished book 1 100% certain that Baru execuited Tain Hu because Tain Hu told her to, for exactly that reason. So I guess I didn't notice any intensification of this in book 2.

Yes

Spoiler

they came to an understanding the night before and Baru knew if she was to succeed Tain had to die. The Apparitor guy is at one point almost begging Baru to plead for Tain's life but Baru turns ultra cold and ignores him.

[Garak]

@Aptorian I'm gonna put this in spoilers simply to spare the ones not interested in Warhammer books the wall of text but it's safe to read.

Spoiler

Regarding Necron books. If you want a book 100% from the Necron pov, then I recommend The Infinite and the Divine. It's a good read and a funny one at that. There's also a novella called Severed but I think you can only find the ebook version of that if you don't mind reading it that way - I always go dead tree version. Other good books featuring necrons (but seen from human POV) are: Caves of Ice, Dead Men Walking, Hammer and Anvil. Fall of Damnos and The World Engine. There a few more were they appear but it's either right at the end (Dark Apostle, Dark Creed) or to minor to mention (Nightbringer, Cain's Last Stand etc.)

If you liked the Eldar in Ghostmaker then you should check out: Valedor, Path of the Dark Eldar trilogy, Asurmen, Jain Zar, Shadow Point, path of the Eldar trilogy, Fabius Bile trilogy (he goes up against them enough times ... oh and the second book has Necrons, forgot about that), Choose Your Enemies.



Now regarding large formations just waltzing around in the open. There are several factors at play, all more or less insane as it's normal in Warhammer.

1.Not every planet has an air force or system defense fleet (defense fleets are usually only good vs random pirates and tend to melt like butter in an oven when something serious comes along). Reasons can range from not wealthy enough to afford it (remember they basically need to ask the Adeptus Mechanicus to come set up a proper factory and all which besides cost also adds bureaucracy - which is utterly insane in real life let alone here), not important enough to be worth it, the Lord Governor dislikes planes for whatever reason (also known as the Nobility is full of idiots) or they got conscripted for some war or another and no one bothered replacing them. Double Eagle, a spin off novel from Gaunt's Ghosts, is focused solely on showing us an air war that is basically the Battle of Britain in 40k.

2.Orbital bombardment is done less often than we'd do it because: it might totally wreck something important that is relatively close to the target (close on a planetary scale), there is no glory to be earned (more on this in a bit), you have to ask the Navy to do it (also more in a bit), enemy fleet is standing by to counter, there are ground based weapons that can make life nasty if you try or powerful shields protecting the target (in the case of Vervenhive they literally don't have any space or air assets, I just assume they got taken to be used on the front lines)

3. Glory. There are plenty of commanders who are glory hounds and will foam at the mouth if they have to share any of it, no matter how much sense it makes or how little the other guy cares about the glory. If the commanders are recruited from their planet's nobility, there's a 99% chance they will be this type. Other forces have other (equally insane) reasons: Space Marines want both glory and the pleasure of close combat (granted they are heavy infantry meant for shock assaults - of course they always want to do things their way, their favorite tactic in void combat is just boarding the enemy ship and killing everyone onboard), Chaos forces really like to sacrifice people and for that you need boots on the ground (and Khorne just wants blood to flow but it has to be personal because ritual and symbolism is everything with them) orks have the most fun beating people to a pulp up close etc.

4. Asking the Navy. Also known as swallowing your pride, admitting to them that you can't handle it and can they please save your bacon. Which they might and then rub it into your face and it will spread to other Guard regiments and they will look down on you. Because of rivalry (honor rearing it's head again) and separation of forces. After the Horus Heresy screwed an already nutso galaxy even worse, Guilliman decided to break up large formations (the Space Marine Legion) and combined arms ones (Guard regiments and Navy ships were just the Imperial Army back then). So now all space and air assests belong to the Navy (you want air support? Ask them for it and then curse them when you find out they mainly filled their ships with void capable fighters and ignored atmospheric ones) and Guard regiments are mono builds. A tank regiment has only tanks (maybe some scout Sentinels), a light infantry regiment what it says (see Tanith 1st), an mechanized infantry one will have Chimera IFVs as well (Armageddon Steel Legions) and so on and so forth. There are exceptions as usual (like Gaunt's Ghosts being attached to a frigate for a long period of time). Phatine is a toxic world with the only cities being domes built high up on mountains, thus their PDF (Planetary Defense Force) regiments are mostly aircraft squadrons. The end result is the rest of the Guard don't like them (because they look like Navy) and the also Navy dislikes them (because they are doing Navy things without being Navy). Is it petty and insane? Yes. Are humans perfectly capable of it and even do it irl? Sadly also yes (look at the Republics backing Trump despite him being a total clown at best). Now they don't always behave this petty but it happens often enough.

5. The tabletop game is mostly about infantry and tanks murdering each other so that's what we get the most but that's the Doylist answer and never as interesting.

[End of Disc One]

Anyone heard from BK lately? It's not like him to go for this long without posting about his reading progress (or lack thereof)

[Aptorian]

Garak, on 10 February 2021 - 01:59 PM, said:

@Aptorian I'm gonna put this in spoilers simply to spare the ones not interested in Warhammer books the wall of text but it's safe to read.

Spoiler

Regarding Necron books. If you want a book 100% from the Necron pov, then I recommend The Infinite and the Divine. It's a good read and a funny one at that. There's also a novella called Severed but I think you can only find the ebook version of that if you don't mind reading it that way - I always go dead tree version. Other good books featuring necrons (but seen from human POV) are: Caves of Ice, Dead Men Walking, Hammer and Anvil. Fall of Damnos and The World Engine. There a few more were they appear but it's either right at the end (Dark Apostle, Dark Creed) or to minor to mention (Nightbringer, Cain's Last Stand etc.)

If you liked the Eldar in Ghostmaker then you should check out: Valedor, Path of the Dark Eldar trilogy, Asurmen, Jain Zar, Shadow Point, path of the Eldar trilogy, Fabius Bile trilogy (he goes up against them enough times ... oh and the second book has Necrons, forgot about that), Choose Your Enemies.



Now regarding large formations just waltzing around in the open. There are several factors at play, all more or less insane as it's normal in Warhammer.

1.Not every planet has an air force or system defense fleet (defense fleets are usually only good vs random pirates and tend to melt like butter in an oven when something serious comes along). Reasons can range from not wealthy enough to afford it (remember they basically need to ask the Adeptus Mechanicus to come set up a proper factory and all which besides cost also adds bureaucracy - which is utterly insane in real life let alone here), not important enough to be worth it, the Lord Governor dislikes planes for whatever reason (also known as the Nobility is full of idiots) or they got conscripted for some war or another and no one bothered replacing them. Double Eagle, a spin off novel from Gaunt's Ghosts, is focused solely on showing us an air war that is basically the Battle of Britain in 40k.

2.Orbital bombardment is done less often than we'd do it because: it might totally wreck something important that is relatively close to the target (close on a planetary scale), there is no glory to be earned (more on this in a bit), you have to ask the Navy to do it (also more in a bit), enemy fleet is standing by to counter, there are ground based weapons that can make life nasty if you try or powerful shields protecting the target (in the case of Vervenhive they literally don't have any space or air assets, I just assume they got taken to be used on the front lines)

3. Glory. There are plenty of commanders who are glory hounds and will foam at the mouth if they have to share any of it, no matter how much sense it makes or how little the other guy cares about the glory. If the commanders are recruited from their planet's nobility, there's a 99% chance they will be this type. Other forces have other (equally insane) reasons: Space Marines want both glory and the pleasure of close combat (granted they are heavy infantry meant for shock assaults - of course they always want to do things their way, their favorite tactic in void combat is just boarding the enemy ship and killing everyone onboard), Chaos forces really like to sacrifice people and for that you need boots on the ground (and Khorne just wants blood to flow but it has to be personal because ritual and symbolism is everything with them) orks have the most fun beating people to a pulp up close etc.

4. Asking the Navy. Also known as swallowing your pride, admitting to them that you can't handle it and can they please save your bacon. Which they might and then rub it into your face and it will spread to other Guard regiments and they will look down on you. Because of rivalry (honor rearing it's head again) and separation of forces. After the Horus Heresy screwed an already nutso galaxy even worse, Guilliman decided to break up large formations (the Space Marine Legion) and combined arms ones (Guard regiments and Navy ships were just the Imperial Army back then). So now all space and air assests belong to the Navy (you want air support? Ask them for it and then curse them when you find out they mainly filled their ships with void capable fighters and ignored atmospheric ones) and Guard regiments are mono builds. A tank regiment has only tanks (maybe some scout Sentinels), a light infantry regiment what it says (see Tanith 1st), an mechanized infantry one will have Chimera IFVs as well (Armageddon Steel Legions) and so on and so forth. There are exceptions as usual (like Gaunt's Ghosts being attached to a frigate for a long period of time). Phatine is a toxic world with the only cities being domes built high up on mountains, thus their PDF (Planetary Defense Force) regiments are mostly aircraft squadrons. The end result is the rest of the Guard don't like them (because they look like Navy) and the also Navy dislikes them (because they are doing Navy things without being Navy). Is it petty and insane? Yes. Are humans perfectly capable of it and even do it irl? Sadly also yes (look at the Republics backing Trump despite him being a total clown at best). Now they don't always behave this petty but it happens often enough.

5. The tabletop game is mostly about infantry and tanks murdering each other so that's what we get the most but that's the Doylist answer and never as interesting.

Love the write up, thanks. I can totally accept the tropes you come up with, as explanations. It fits with the nature of the lore.

But it then falters when Abnett, in my reading of the Ghost stories, tries to play the story way too straight and sane. Like if there were throw away lines from an infantry men grumbling about the fething command not even wanting to spend the resources on an orbital strike to protect the men or Kommisar Kowle blowing away a soldier for suggesting they dishonor the guard by nuking the enemy, etc. - That kind of stuff protects against the sense of disbelief. Way too often I'm reading the military decisions and overall military strategy and wondering how much Abnett knows about military strategy.

[Macros]

I'd say don't think in terms of grand strategy.
In a point to point move and target op the ghosts are the best in the business and know their shit. Anyone above unit commander is generally a fuckwit, glory hound or a completely indoctrinated mad man.

[Macros]

Also, remember Gaunt is very much the exception that proves the rule when it comes to the commissars. Knowles is very much more in the insane mold they engender.

[Aptorian]

Certainly, you're right. I actually kind of like Kowle because he much better fits into the image of brutality and arrogance I'd expect from Guard officers.

I've got about a hundred pages left of the third book now and it's becoming very apparent why the story is called Necropolis. I've got a hard time picturing the Ghosts getting out of this one alive.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 10 February 2021 - 03:57 PM

[QuickTidal]

Read JADE CITY by Fonda Lee. What a great book in a totally Asian setting, with cool powers and politicking. Will definitely continue the series!

[Garak]

Well not everyone is off their hinges in the setting. Just enough of them. Plus well, it's also down to each author how the handles the specifics.

This post has been edited by Garak: 10 February 2021 - 05:42 PM

[Aptorian]

Finished The House in the Cerulean Sea. Very sweet, very enjoyable story. One of the most heartwarming books I've read.

It lays the woke messaging on very thick but it works, perhaps even better, because of it.

Also finished Necropolis. Despite my reservations an enjoyable read. The ending was interesting. If new soldiers can now join the Ghosts I wonder how many people joined up. Almost want to jump straight into book 4 to hear what happens next. I'd be surprised if Gaunt continues to be a simple Colonel after his performance on veyveyr.

Think I'll take a break from Gaunt's Ghosts before starting the second Omnibus.

Got William Gibson's Sprawl trilogy lined up, starting with Neuromancer. Cyberpunk 2077 coming out last year made me want to read some Cyberpunk. I'm sure I've read some of these Gibson books when I was a teenager but I don't remember a damn thing except that there was some AI on a satellite or something.

Might read Evan Winter's Burning books in between. Starting with Rage of Dragons.

[Aptorian]

Read a couple of chapters of Neuromancer. Man, this is some 80s-ass Cyberpunk. It reads like a feberdream of commercialism and consumerism vs anti-establishment, drug culture and tech-worship. Somehow, it feels as vibrant and visionary in 2021 as it did back then. Feels like diving into the worst and best parts of the 80s.

Makes me want to watch Johnny Mnemonic. I'm half-certain that the chick that helps Keaunu Reeves in the Johnny Mnemonic film is the same character as Molly who teams up with Case in this book.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 11 February 2021 - 08:51 AM

[Maark Abbott]

End of Disc One, on 10 February 2021 - 02:11 PM, said:

Anyone heard from BK lately? It's not like him to go for this long without posting about his reading progress (or lack thereof)

He popped up on Facebook the other day, I think he's just busy with something from the sound of it.