[Mentalist]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 09 May 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

Puck, on 08 May 2018 - 10:30 PM, said:

JPK, on 08 May 2018 - 05:55 AM, said:

Mad Ship delivered. Holy crap did it deliver. As soon as I shelved it, I immediately grabbed Ship of Destiny and jumped into the prologue. I really enjoyed Farseer but Liveship is making me see Hobb for the master that so many people proclaim her to be.

Spoilers for Farseer and Liveship 1/2:

Spoiler

So, it's supposed to be stupidly obvious that Amber is The Fool, right? Affinity for wood, pale coloring, adept at disguises... Hell, there was even a point in Mad Ship when the first mate called her a fool to her face and she responds with 'I've been called a fool before and I likely will be again."

Seriously though, I'm absolutely in awe of not only her famed characterization, but her world-building. Dragons, telepaths, golems, sea serpents... none of these are fresh concepts on their own. However, she has taken these core fantasy staples and created something truly unique and wonderful from them. Sea serpents as a larval stage of a dragon, telepaths that imprint their memories onto dragonish shaped golems that have memory-wiping effects when they pass overhead...

Spoiler

I think it is. I mean, it just jumps out at you. That said, I love how Amber is, in fact, a different person from the Fool, personality-wise. It shows the depth of the character and Hobb's skill at characterization. For added fun, there's even a scene where Amber shows Althea how to disguise herself as a boy. There are a lot of references to who Amber is all over the place.

Spoiler

I didn't twig Fool = Amber until part way through The Golden Fool I think - mind you, I read Liveship first and then went back to Assassin, which I don't think helped. I remember grinning from ear to ear when the lightbulb went off though!

I'd agree with giving Liveship a chance even when people don't care for Fitz. I read the Liveship trilogy first, and adored it. Fitz is a bit of a come down but I like enough of what's going on around him to still really enjoy the Farseer trilogies.

I could totally deal with books 1 and 2 as coming of age stories. They weren't particularly gripping, but well-grounded and interesting enough.

The decision to combine a coming of age arc with a travelogue in Bk3, however, is a step too far.

I have "Ship of Magic" lying on one of my shelves, and I'm expecting I'll get to it at some point this year, but I'd be lying if I said I felt any particular excitement for it right now.

[pat5150]

Just read and reviewed L. E. Modesitt, jr.'s Outcasts of Order. The author's Recluce story arcs usually follow a 2-volume format, but Beltur's story was too big and was split into 3 installments. Sadly, this one suffers from middle book syndrome and is not as compelling at the others. Sets the stage nicely for the final book, but it doesn't stand that well on its own.

[Mentalist]

Finished "Dervish House" . It gets better, when there's less talk about raw finance and more about nano-terrorism and conspiracy treasure hunting.

EDIT: finished that a tad ahead of schedule, but no point starting new book now... Guess, I'll carry the Red Knight in commute for a coupla days before buying and starting "Farlander" next week.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 10 May 2018 - 04:18 AM

[Salt-Man Z]

Recently finished the second Babylon Steel book by Gaie Sebold, Dangerous Gifts. If you liked the first one, you'll probably enjoy this as well; and it's a stronger book overall, as it narrows its focus down to a single plotline this time. It's only $3 on Kindle, so if you get the first one cheap, you might as well toss this one in as well.

Started in Kay Kenyon's Bright of the Sky, the first in a quarter ("The Entire and the Rose") that I've been slowly collecting since 2009, when I won the 3rd book through Pat's blog. I just found the fourth and final book on the clearance rack a couple weeks ago, so I'm finally diving in. Enjoyable enough so far, but it's just getting started...

[Maark Abbott]

QuickTidal, on 09 May 2018 - 02:33 PM, said:

Abyss, on 09 May 2018 - 02:24 PM, said:

Chance, on 09 May 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

Nearly done with Dancer's Lament ... I could likely read a dozen books of this kind on the backstory of the old guard.

Seconded.

Thirded.

Fourthed but on the proviso that they aren't rushed horrendously like Path to Ascendancy has been up until this point. Publishers may love brevity but a reader does not.

[Macros]

Correction.
Some readers do not. I do not want slogs

[Maark Abbott]

Macros, on 10 May 2018 - 06:38 AM, said:

Correction.
Some readers do not. I do not want slogs

I mean there's a notable difference between a slog and a novel so fleeting that it may as well have been a comic book.

[Gorefest]

I disagree. I think one of the reasons why the ICE prequels are such an enjoyable read is because they are nicely paced. ICE's writing style just doesn't lend itself so well to large tomes as SE's. His Empire series would really have benefited from some sound editing. I think you are mistaking longevity with quality. In my personal experience, 9 out of 10 times a book gets large because the author has overreached themselves and has been let down by their editors/proofreaders than that it actually makes for a better read.

[polishgenius]

When SE announced that he was dropping the Karkhanas trilogy to concentrated on Karsa because of low sales, it was also mentioned that Path to Ascendancy sells very well. So while you personally might not like the brevity and nothing wrong with that, it's obviously not 'readers' in general. I mean, the entire sentiment doesn't really make sense because when it comes down to the basics publishers like what readers like. If they didn't they wouldn't sell anything.

And heck, there's been people who've been on-off Malazan fans who tried Dancer's Lament after stalling on the main series/ICE books because of the advertised simplicity and enjoyed it.

[Gorefest]

It is not the size that matters, it is what you do with it.

[Gorefest]

Nudge nudge wink wink.

[Macros]

Have read the first ... 6? Books of the Horus heresy there.

Good books (still not Gaunts ghosts standard) but I'm kind of disappointed how quickly they all turned and it went to shit. After book one In was expecting a slow inexorable slide into darkness but it was almost like flicking a switch, kind of took the stink out of the betrayal in how easy it was for chaos.
The emperor is a douche, don't get me wrong, but he is the god Emperor and saviour of the imperium

The emperor protects

[Macros]

Maark Abbott, on 10 May 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

Macros, on 10 May 2018 - 06:38 AM, said:

Correction.
Some readers do not. I do not want slogs

I mean there's a notable difference between a slog and a novel so fleeting that it may as well have been a comic book.

To double down on gorefest here, publishers want what sells. And for ICE (imo) he is much better suited as an author to tight more contained stories (NoK, the ascendants trilo) than sprawling messes (basically everything else). I'd rather have a tight short story than and drawn out shambling mess full of navel gazing and pointless depression (see DoD and tCG) or karkanas first two. They weren't selling for a reason.
Don't get me wrong, I like a doorstopper, when it's warranted and the story isn't a painful slog.

[QuickTidal]

Maark Abbott, on 10 May 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

Macros, on 10 May 2018 - 06:38 AM, said:

Correction.
Some readers do not. I do not want slogs

I mean there's a notable difference between a slog and a novel so fleeting that it may as well have been a comic book.

Aren't you a writer wanting people to read your work? This seems like an awfully caustic and elitist opinion to share with a bunch of people who might just happen to like shorter cleaner books. And this is not the first time you've openly slammed another author on here simply because you didn't care for their work. Just weird to me.

Personally I feel the Path to Ascendancy books are perfect length, thoroughly enjoyable fast-paced Malazan reads.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 May 2018 - 02:18 PM

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 10 May 2018 - 02:16 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 10 May 2018 - 07:17 AM, said:

Macros, on 10 May 2018 - 06:38 AM, said:

Correction.
Some readers do not. I do not want slogs

I mean there's a notable difference between a slog and a novel so fleeting that it may as well have been a comic book.

Aren't you a writer wanting people to read your work? This seems like an awfully caustic and elitist opinion to share with a bunch of people who might just happen to like shorter cleaner books. And this is not the first time you've openly slammed another author on here simply because you didn't care for their work. Just weird to me.

Personally I feel the Path to Ascendancy books are perfect length, thoroughly enjoyable fast-paced Malazan reads.

As someone who has taken considerable pleasure in reading very long books, I think the quality of the writing and personal taste dictates reader enjoyment more than simply length.
Like I love both Memories of Ice and Dancer's Lament, and I recognise that both are very different books.

Simple length is never a guarantor of quality, and too much detail can bog the story down (WoT) but a too short book can leave a reader unfulfilled. Its upto the author to find the balance here. And there will always be readers who prefer shorter to longer reads.

[worry]

I think some of you guys are way overreacting. Maark is saying that these books don't dig in as much as he'd like, and are worse for it. I don't think he's arguing for some arbitrary minimum page count so much as space for the story and characters to breathe a bit more. Add a little pathos, a little more emotional heft. Seems like a pretty fair complaint, given that this series is the one telling of this era in Malazan history we are going to get.

Of course it's just as fair to say that the tone and length fit ICE's talents more than the epics do, as he's prone to plot sprawl without the preternatural gift SE has for pulling everything together. So a tighter focus and breezier pace leads to a much nicer ICE experience chock full of his strengths (looney tunes humor, bursts of unromanticized violence, eldritch horror, FOG BANKS, etc.).

This post has been edited by Luv2B_Sassy: 10 May 2018 - 08:11 PM

[Puck]

Luv2B_Sassy, on 10 May 2018 - 08:11 PM, said:

I think some of you guys are way overreacting. Maark is saying that these books don't dig in as much as he'd like, and are worse for it. I don't think he's arguing for some arbitrary minimum page count so much as space for the story and characters to breathe a bit more. Add a little pathos, a little more emotional heft. Seems like a pretty fair complaint, given that this series is the one telling of this era in Malazan history we are going to get.

While I agree that this may be the intention, and while I would wholeheartedly agree with that, the way Maark said it is understandably rubbing people the wrong way. Some stories and styles simply do not need a thousand pages to be told or to tell a story, and emotional impact is not necessarily achieved by overindulgence in details. Personally, I would rather say that it depends a lot on the writing style and wether there is enough story to be told. I am madly in love with both SE's style (very indulgent at times) AND Glen Cook's (brevity is wit at its finest). I'd also say there's a big difference between details which work to further the reader's immersion and those which work to pad the text with unnecessary detail, and the line between them is very delicate and lies elsewhere for any given reader. Thus making blanket statements like 'readers want this' or 'readers don't want that' is pointless, everyone is going to enjoy something else, and sometimes the same thing will seem amazing or trite depending on the context of the story and the skill of the author.

Another thing is that it takes a special kind of author who writes only what he wants to read. You may be lucky to happen to write something that people want to read, but you cannot make readers like it, and doing exclusively your thing has its pitfalls. For example, I adore what Bakker is doing, and I fervently wish for him to keep doing that, but there's a reason why his books aren't selling all that well and why there's a huuuge question mark on wether his third trilogy/series/whatever will ever see the light of day. Even SE has lost his "piss on compromise" stance once he saw that Kharkanas wasn't selling well. Do I like that? Hell, no way, I want MORE Kharkanas and I'm not reading ICE anymore because what he writes is not my thing, but that in no way means that everyone who does is in the wrong. People like what they like.

I'll be honest: as a reader, theses kinds of blanket statements make me hesitant to read Maark's book, even though I bought it.

This post has been edited by Puck: 10 May 2018 - 09:49 PM

[worry]

I don't disagree with any of that, but if we're gonna argue about the abrasive way Maark says things we're gonna be here all day. His default setting is Maximum Disgruntlement. His daddy was a billy goat and his mama was Xbox Live. He'd gripe at the morning dew glistening off the petal of a newly-blossomed marigold if the shine hit his eye the wrong way, and tell Mother Nature none of us liked her in the first place. Plus he's British, so he barely knows how to speak English in the first place. All the caustic dressing should be taken with a grain of salt. You can even have a little fun with it. Like let's try this:


HEY. I WAS WONDERING IF ANY OF YOU HAVE READ BRANDON SANDERSON'S THE WAY OF KINGS, AND IF YOU HAVE ANY OPINIONS ABOUT IT?

[Abyss]

Yes. It was much much better than TIGANA.

[Macros]

Saying it's better than Tigana is like saying the sinking of the Lusitania is better than the sinking of the Titanic.