[JPK]

The Swampfather, on 22 February 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 February 2018 - 02:34 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 22 February 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

Andorion, on 22 February 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 22 February 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 22 February 2018 - 04:57 AM, said:

Also I'm now on RG after finishing ROTCG.

I'm a pace behind you, about halfway through a ROTCG re-read...I forgot how good this book was!

On the topic of Malazan rereads, I finished Deadhouse Gates today. That ending never really loses its impact

Yeah Ando I felt the rage and sadness begin to rise as I got closer to the end...

QT yes! And the ending is a really full on convergence that starts about 3/4 of the way through and just keeps picking up pace! So good...

It's always blown my mind how the end (THAT end) of DG, has even more impact, even knowing what is coming.
The conclusions of the other storylines are pretty epic too tho. I've always liked that about the book, you get THAT, but then you get that.

Just hit the halfway point of RG. Trying to pick up speed so I can get to my 3rd attempt at RotCG.

I think you and I are at right about the same place right now, BK. Where exactly are you atm?

[JPK]

Lol, I JUST passed that about a day ago.

[Fiddler Farstrider]

Maark Abbott, on 22 February 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

Literally every step towards Golgotterath is immeasurably brutal, beautifully laid out, and sublimely written. It's been a good long while since I read anything this good.

What a fantastic ride. Easily my favorite series outside of the Malazan universe. Brutal, thoughtful and highly cerebral. I felt drained running up to the conclusion, almost in a sweat. Please Mr. Bakker we need more and it sounds like he is up for the challenge.

I would say Bakker's works fall into the Literature category right along side of the best of Erikson. Any other works out there that could be in this sentence?

[Abyss]

Fiddler Farstrider, on 23 February 2018 - 08:43 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 22 February 2018 - 08:31 AM, said:

Literally every step towards Golgotterath is immeasurably brutal, beautifully laid out, and sublimely written. It's been a good long while since I read anything this good.

What a fantastic ride. Easily my favorite series outside of the Malazan universe. Brutal, thoughtful and highly cerebral. I felt drained running up to the conclusion, almost in a sweat. Please Mr. Bakker we need more and it sounds like he is up for the challenge.

I would say Bakker's works fall into the Literature category right along side of the best of Erikson. Any other works out there that could be in this sentence?

In certain ways i put Stover's ACTS OF CAINE in there, or at least hovering close on the periphery of it, but after that it is hard to think of more.
I suppose Gaiman's SANDMAN graphic novels are just as cerebral, but not nearly as gloriously ugly as Malazan and Bakker can get.

[polishgenius]

I'm never a fan of the whole idea of distinguishing 'literature' and genre, but if we're talking high-grade, thematically-dense writing in SFF, and we're not mentioning Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, we're doing it wrong. It's very different from Bakker/Erikson, but it's an amazing work.


I also tend to think of The Book of All Hours by Hal Duncan in that category, but not everyone agrees. This is one that definitely doesn't get the double-stamp. But if you like theological cyber-mythpunk, and are willing to wait for quite a while before the absolutely nutbar plot comes together into something that makes sense, it's definitely worth a go.



Daniel Abraham and China Mieville are two writers who I like as much but they don't have that aforementioned density of theme, which I kind of guess is part of what you're looking for.

[Andorion]

polishgenius, on 23 February 2018 - 09:45 PM, said:

I'm never a fan of the whole idea of distinguishing 'literature' and genre, but if we're talking high-grade, thematically-dense writing in SFF, and we're not mentioning Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, we're doing it wrong. It's very different from Bakker/Erikson, but it's an amazing work.


I also tend to think of The Book of All Hours by Hal Duncan in that category, but not everyone agrees. This is one that definitely doesn't get the double-stamp. But if you like theological cyber-mythpunk, and are willing to wait for quite a while before the absolutely nutbar plot comes together into something that makes sense, it's definitely worth a go.



Daniel Abraham and China Mieville are two writers who I like as much but they don't have that aforementioned density of theme, which I kind of guess is part of what you're looking for.

If Bakker is "literature" so is Malazan. And most definitely, Gene Wolfe's New Sun.

Where would you place Gormenghast?


I think that the category of literature is too overblown sometimes - I have read quite a bit of literature that frankly is just not very good. And every time someone starts talking about it, I can't help but remember that old Terry Pratchett quote -

Quote

“In theory it was, around now, Literature. Susan hated Literature. She'd much prefer to read a good book.”

[polishgenius]

Andorion, on 24 February 2018 - 01:26 AM, said:

Where would you place Gormenghast?

When I was younger I tried a number of times to read Gormenghast and didn't get into it at all, so nowhere really. It'll be on the list again at some stage, but not that soon I'd imagine.

[Fiddler Farstrider]

polishgenius, on 23 February 2018 - 09:45 PM, said:

I'm never a fan of the whole idea of distinguishing 'literature' and genre, but if we're talking high-grade, thematically-dense writing in SFF, and we're not mentioning Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun, we're doing it wrong. It's very different from Bakker/Erikson, but it's an amazing work.


I also tend to think of The Book of All Hours by Hal Duncan in that category, but not everyone agrees. This is one that definitely doesn't get the double-stamp. But if you like theological cyber-mythpunk, and are willing to wait for quite a while before the absolutely nutbar plot comes together into something that makes sense, it's definitely worth a go.



Daniel Abraham and China Mieville are two writers who I like as much but they don't have that aforementioned density of theme, which I kind of guess is part of what you're looking for.

I'll have to check out Hal Duncan, looks interesting. Speculative fiction comes in so many different forms. We have Nobel prize winners who dabbled in the genre. 100 years of solitude by Garcia and the most recent winner Kazuo Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go is certainly in that genre. Atwood, Bradbury, Zamyatin, Orwell all tried and true authors of speculative fiction that have great critical success but epic fantasy authors still have not broken that threshold.




I've read Mieville, PSS was fantastically odd and disturbing and Abraham's Long Price Quartet was delicate and haunting and I thought very well done.

Of all that I read, only Erikson and Bakker could breach the annals of epic fantasy as literature. But as noted, more importantly first and foremost it must be a enjoyable read with a good story and characters.

[Slow Ben]

polishgenius, on 24 February 2018 - 06:25 AM, said:

Andorion, on 24 February 2018 - 01:26 AM, said:

Where would you place Gormenghast?

When I was younger I tried a number of times to read Gormenghast and didn't get into it at all, so nowhere really. It'll be on the list again at some stage, but not that soon I'd imagine.

Me too. When i read an article that it was one of Stephen King's favorites I tried twice to get into it but couldnt do it.

Might give it a holler again someday.

[Salt-Man Z]

Gormenghast IS literature. It's also gorgeous.

And Gene Wolfe is already lauded by so many SFF authors as being the best in the genre. (Le Guin called him "our Melville".)

[End of Disc One]

Salt-Man Z, on 24 February 2018 - 05:10 PM, said:

Gormenghast IS literature. It's also gorgeous.

And Gene Wolfe is already lauded by so many SFF authors as being the best in the genre. (Le Guin called him "our Melville".)

I read that as "our Mieville" at first as was so confused. Though China Mieville is awesome.

[Macros]

Finished Chapter House Dune.
Ask your questions BK

This post has been edited by Macros: 24 February 2018 - 08:57 PM

[Macros]

Which ending.

Spoiler time I guess

Spoiler

The ending of Murbella thinking she can break all of the honoured matres the way she was broken (personally I think there are too many and Duncan did the right thing to flee with Teg and Sheena. Tegs abilities beg investigation and Bell would probably argue the bloodline and gene outliers are too dangerous to let continue.)
I don't really like the honoured matres as characters, I think the premise is too outlandish even for the setting, which somehow makes the bene Gesserit seem plausible, so no, I've no interest in continuing on that storyline)
The epilogue, as I viewed it, I looked at the old couple in one of two ways, possibly a combination of the two. They're clearly new face dancers, who have, at some stage, absorbed someone of the atriedes line and put themselves through the agony or someone who has been through the agony and they have some form, if not of prescience, farseeing and higher level abilities, as well as access to technology far beyond what is available in the old empire. It's possible they have some mutation of Tegs ability to track no ships. They are likely part of what drove the Honoured Matres back to the old empire. But on the other hand. I think they're a cheeky wink from Herbert, it's him and his late wife, and they've been watching the universe from a far as it's creator. The last comment about 'ugh gholas' I took as some little joke between them, but on the other side of the knife, it could be the face dancers dislike of gholas' on principle.
I think I can accommodate both these viewpoints into one space as they do work side by side. I don't think there was a set up with them to carry on if that's what you mean, I think it was closure of the atriedes story as Sheena and co are properly lost and scattered, only Duncan knows how to get back, and why would they want to, when they suspect what is going to happen?

In short, it didn't make me want to read more, as I don't think it was intended too. Sure the son says there were notes for dune 7, but I'm sceptical of how much there was. It seems like a fairly natural end point, a clean break as it were from chapter house. And with scytale gone as well, it seems like an end of the atriedes hold on idaho

[Aptorian]

250 so pages into the second Sandman Slim book, Kill the Dead. Much better, more focused book than the first, but also struck by the same glaring plot holes.

The book is very much driven by "The Rule of Cool" and often leaves ordinary logic behind. There's been at least three times in the book now where things go very bad and instead of using his shadow door ability, Stark drives around the city instead. It makes no god damn sense. I feel like the author made an over powered deus ex machina ability and forgot to build in a reason not to use it.

Also, now the author is stripping Stark of his healing powers?! But why!? Why do writers do this? Don't neuter your characters, turn up the difficulty of the obstacles instead.

[Maark Abbott]

About 150 pages into TUC

Spoiler

We've reached Tentacle Palace. Kellhus has just arrived (or so I'm led to believe) to find his Ordeal looking rather meaty indeed. I'm mostly now looking forward to Inchoroi Time.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

In light of the recent announcement, I'm re-reading Consider Phlebas, having last read it 5+ years ago.

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 22 February 2018 - 01:11 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 21 February 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

Andorion, on 21 February 2018 - 06:04 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 21 February 2018 - 05:09 PM, said:

Andorion, on 21 February 2018 - 04:37 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 21 February 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

Abyss, on 21 February 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Started HARRY POTTER AND THE CURSED CHILD and huh, this is not very good.

Ignore the villain of the book when you get there...but the story that is interesting in there is about Albus living in his fathers shadow, and Scorpius living in his fathers shadow, and who those two older men have become long AFTER their exploits. On THAT level...it's a GREAT story...but some of the framing narrative is a little hinky.

Little? They got practically everything wrong in that book. I just pretend its fan fiction

I'm not sure what issues you have with it, I found it fine.

Several issues

Spoiler

The structure of time travel is fundamentally broken. In the original series time travel is a closed loop. Thus harry always saw himself conjure the patronus. You simply could not change the present by altering the past, as going by the physics of the universe, the past would always have been changed and the present would always have been different. Thus the fundamental premise of the story is broken.

It is noted in the story that the new Time Turner is actually a new prototype that allows the changes to the timeline that the ones from the original series couldn't. And considering Magic Tech (to coin a phrase) has what? About 25 years of time in which the Ministry to work on such a device and refine it...I see no issue with things in the Wizarding universe leaping forward as our own tech does in 25 years time.

I really did not like Ron's character at all.

Eh, I get why you'd say that...but it really felt like the progression from who he was in high school (the layabout, football obsessed, utterly clueless guy who ends up with the smart-as-a-tack girlfriend) to who he becomes as an adult.

Also Voldemort.....has a child? .....Just...no.. I simply could not accept that - Voldemort's fundamental driving force was that he wanted to be immortal - the drive to reproduce would be utterly alien to him as no one in his mind would be a true successor.

See, I think Delphini was written over the top, which is why I dislike her, but I feel like her existence makes perfect sense. Before Riddle becomes Voldemort proper...(aka when he still looked like a human) he has an affair with Bellatrix....because what are the ways one lives forever? Other than magical ways like Horcruxes...they are children. And you also have to this about it this way...Voldemort's most hidden, yet most blatant PURPOSEFUL Horcrux (AKA not Harry)....was his snake Nagini. A creature and familiar he kept by his side throughout his second life. I have doubts that Riddle KNEW about Bellatrix's pregnancy before he went down on the night the Potter's died...but then I could TOTALLY see him wanting a human offspring of his blood to possibly ALSO be a horcux for his longevity in the future...and that was his plan with the affair (with a pure blood witch from an old family). It makes sense to me, even if I thought the execution of her as a character is a tad off. Nothing in the original series conflicts with the idea that Tom Riddle might have the desire to procreate for his own ends...and I feel like Nagini is the non-human example of that.

Also other stuff I am forgetting at the moment

Replies in red within the spoiler tag.

Replies and additions"

Spoiler

Timeturners - I remember the new time turners were more powerful which allowed someone to go further back than before, but was it ever mentioned that they changed the nature of time travel? Because my own impression was that the authors had not understood Rowlong's original time travel mechanisme

Ron - I think you are doing him a disservice here. Ron was always more than that - he always stood out for his sheer courage and loyalty. They took a couple of his character traits and then magnified them beyond recognition

Voldemort - Does the timeline hold up here - if Bellatrix had the baby before Voldemort fell for the first time? How old would the daughter be then?
Also - where did the baby go? Bellatrix and her entire family went to Azkaban, we know that the two families closest to her - the Blacks and the Malfoys never raised her - and frankly this is the sort of thing that would have been mentioned by either Bellatrix or Voldemort in the later books - the retcon is just a bit too much here.

Also the idea of Harry being a bad father just does not sit right with me. Harry knows better than most the problems of a bad childhood, of growing up in the shadow of fame - he would go out of his way to ensure his son did not face that. He is literally the one person who would know what problems his children would face and also not to expect gigantic things from them. His character was twisted a bit too badly.

Also, this part I don't remember well but something about the Potters in Godric's Hollow struck me as wrong - i think there was something a bit off about the Fidelius charm mechanics, but I don't remember the details.

Andorion, on 22 February 2018 - 01:36 AM, said:

The Swampfather, on 22 February 2018 - 01:32 AM, said:

Is that stuff "official" official or did she just say ok you have my permission to make a play now give me your money? This doesn't sound like good stuff imo.

From reading the book/play I got the impression that Rowling had very little input and the authors she gave permission to just did their own thing. I have seen many HP fans say that they will treat it as fan fiction because of this

The Swampfather, on 22 February 2018 - 01:59 AM, said:

I've always really wanted the 19 yrs later stuff but I don't want that for sure!

Abyss, on 22 February 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 22 February 2018 - 02:30 AM, said:

Andorion, on 22 February 2018 - 01:36 AM, said:

The Swampfather, on 22 February 2018 - 01:32 AM, said:

Is that stuff "official" official or did she just say ok you have my permission to make a play now give me your money? This doesn't sound like good stuff imo.

From reading the book/play I got the impression that Rowling had very little input and the authors she gave permission to just did their own thing. I have seen many HP fans say that they will treat it as fan fiction because of this

This is incorrect. She wrote out the story with Thorne and the other author, and then Thorne scripted it. Any story points she not only approved, but had her hands directly in. Rowling is NOT one to let others randomly play in her franchise unchecked. This is not something she does.

Yeah, critique it all one wants, but it's no more fanfic than ICE's books to SE's.

Tiste Simeon, on 22 February 2018 - 04:33 AM, said:

Abyss, on 22 February 2018 - 02:05 AM, said:

Part of the problem with CURSED CHILD is just the format... it's a theater play script, and that requires certain elements (exposition, lame fx, movement limited by staging) that were never in the HP books or even the movies.
It sets the entire thing off on the wrong foot because the author could be Rowlings' clone and not be able to work with the world the way she did.

At the halfway mark and it's gotten better. ish. Will finish.

Yeah I was very unimpressed reading it but I would still go and see it given half a chance!

Just finished HARRY POTTER AND THE CURSED CHILD.

I don't regret reading (earing) it, but the limits of the format truly limit the story to the point that, having enjoyed the original HP books (and been left mostly meh about the movies), I can't say it was more than just an ok read as a story taking place in a world I have a fondness for.

SPOILERS

Spoiler

At a basic level, being a theater screen play just kills the imagination and sheer fun of the magic in the HP world because the script, which is supposed to be produced in the real world (and was) just can't do what a book can, or even fake it really well. Things like Aldus/Scorp/Delphini in Hermione's Library read vague and silly as opposed to genuinely threatening or even interesting. Retelling the competitions from the Tri-Wizard Tournment via Ludo bagman yelling in the background is just lame. And fuck the authors for not giving Ron and Hermione's a glorious massive throwdown against the dementors in the Dark Timeline and going with a wholly lame 'let them capture us and suck our souls out of our faces it will buy Scorpius and Snape time to run away' probably because it was cheaper than the alternative.

Aldus and Scorpius could have been great characters... their interplay is fun, the Daddy-issue reasons why they're so messed up are logical, but they don't really shine because at every turn they are bailed out by original characters. And it's suitably epic to see Harry fight to protect his son, Snape becoming a real hero, Cedric being cool... for a fan of the books these things are a treat. Warrior Queen Hermione is awesome and sullen Defence against Dark Stuff Prof Hermione is suitably nasty. I laughed at every one of Ron`s appearances. The lead in the Harry transforming into Voldemort is as dark as it should be. Harry and Draco`s entire friends/not-friends thing is near perfect. ... but all these bits are just that, bits fit into a mediocre story that lives down to it's potential because of how it came to be.

Re some of the upthread points, the new timeturners were a complete answer to the earlier time travel issues, and Ron was Ron. Delphini... I wish she had been a little more developed, and not just gone from friend/ally/age-inappropriate love interest to screamingly evil so abruptly, and then turning the entire thing to 'wah I want my evil daddy'... meh. Good idea, tepid execution. I have no problem accepting that Voldy had a kid.

Sure, I would see the theater play, but mostly for the same bits, not the overall story.

On to Pierce Brown's IRON GOLD.

ETA ...briefly started Hearne's IRON DRUID short story collection, BESIEGED. Couldn't do it. Atticus in Egypt was ok, Atticus and Will Shakespear's Excellent Adventure was another example of why this narrator should never do accents, and by the time Atticus insulted an earth elemental by call the State of Idaho 'boring', i was out.

[Macros]

Dual reading for once.

In dead tree it's
Christian Cameron's Killer of Men
And on the phone it's
Django Wexlers Infernal Battalion

[JPK]

Alright Assassin's Quest has shown me why most authors skim over the long monotonous travelling sections of their stories.

This book really does rank up there with the sloggiest of slogs.

Now that said, now that Fitz is traveling on the road surrounded by characters that are much more interesting than he is, the book is finally picking up again.

[QuickTidal]

JPK, on 27 February 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

Alright Assassin's Quest has shown me why most authors skim over the long monotonous travelling sections of their stories.

This book really does rank up there with the sloggiest of slogs.

Now that said, now that Fitz is traveling on the road surrounded by characters that are much more interesting than he is, the book is finally picking up again.

Yeah, Hobb really doesn't know how to write pacey books. Like at all. I sometimes can't finish them in one go as a result. I recall the second trilogy being a BIT better in that regard....but the third (most recent trilogy) jumped back to the sluggish pacing of the first. Her first book in the series is inarguably the best simply because it's the shortest and most "to the point". The bloat comes after.

This is not to imply they are not good books...but they can be VERY sluggish.