[Mentalist]

D, on 03 October 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 02 October 2014 - 07:37 PM, said:

Yeah, it sounds like you've already signed off Drek. You may as well not bother.

Tropes messed with:

Amazeballs swordsman is actually a dickish, preening fool who could not fight a real fight if he tried.

Powerful Wizard who is either from antiquity, or masquerading as someone from antiquity is actually an even bigger dick than the swordsman is and is all about machinations and being a puppetmaster.

Humble, seemingly altruistic Barbarian from misunderstood north is actually a berserker madman who forgets who he is and what he's doing when fighting (think the Hulk).

Crippled asshole torturer is actually the most clever man around and is a master manipulator.

Stalwart, brave, and honest commanding military man is actually a cowardly rapist assclown who can't see past his own words to his deeds.

Foreign slave on a quest to find vengeance is actually far too bent in that direction to know what she's doing most of the time...kind of like Monza from BSC actually...just with a lot less skill.

I think if you're not down with such character studies, it may not be the series for you?

Hey, that actually sounds interesting. If only some of those were actually even hinted at in the first 300 pages...?

(Ok, Jezal is certainly a dick in the first 300p, but he hasn't even been close to a "real" fight so far so no way to know about that one way or another, while Ferro has had literally one chapter so not much to go on there. Haven't seen any master manipulating going on from Glokta whatsoever so far, he just goes about interviewing people as per his job. Nothing from West so far. Logen has fought a bit but no signs of him losing his head when he does yet, nor does he seem all that altruistic... he's just lazy. Bayaz hasn't done anything to suggest being a dick or being a manipulator other than being harsh with his apprentice yet - he hardly says anything at all.)

Who knows, maybe the last 200p will make all seem good, I'm just saying so far I've been tempted to put it down.

I wasn't blown away by Abercrombie, But I did read the First Law books in 1 sitting each. I found them entertaining, but not very deep. And after a certain point in Book 3 I stopped trying to take his world seriously.

Glokta was certainly interesting, because you don't often see a head of secret police as a main character in fantasy. I think it was the novelty that took me through Book 1. Book 2 has much more action.

[Grief]

I think QT's right D'rek, you probably shouldn't bother, it's probably just not for you; you having taste and all.

When it comes down to it (as QT's post illustrates rather well, really), his box-ticking approach to "trope subversion" is essentially just as predictable as if he'd not bothered to give all of his massive cliches that one twist that it becomes astoundingly obvious is coming, and it just doesn't get around the fact that 99% of it is still massively cliche. It's more cliche in many ways than a lot of "standard" fantasy that isn't trying half so hard to be subversive. Abercrombie is the worst sort of tedious "gritty fantasy" bandwaggoning...

I ought to copy down this rant for next time, to save me typing it again.

[worry]

You could also print it out, crumple it up, and cram it.

[D'rek]

Grief, on 03 October 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think QT's right D'rek, you probably shouldn't bother, it's probably just not for you; you having taste and all.

When it comes down to it (as QT's post illustrates rather well, really), his box-ticking approach to "trope subversion" is essentially just as predictable as if he'd not bothered to give all of his massive cliches that one twist that it becomes astoundingly obvious is coming, and it just doesn't get around the fact that 99% of it is still massively cliche. It's more cliche in many ways than a lot of "standard" fantasy that isn't trying half so hard to be subversive. Abercrombie is the worst sort of tedious "gritty fantasy" bandwaggoning...

I ought to copy down this rant for next time, to save me typing it again.

I'd probably agree wholeheartedly based on TBI so far, except that I liked BSC and found it didn't have any of the same troubles I'm having with TBI nor did I find it was too clichey or trying too hard to subvert cliches, either. So I'm not ready to write off Abercrombie, just TBI in particular isn't working for me, I guess.

[Grief]

worry, on 03 October 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

You could also print it out, crumple it up, and cram it.

My post was that bad? Maybe it's a character study...

D, on 03 October 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

Grief, on 03 October 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think QT's right D'rek, you probably shouldn't bother, it's probably just not for you; you having taste and all.

When it comes down to it (as QT's post illustrates rather well, really), his box-ticking approach to "trope subversion" is essentially just as predictable as if he'd not bothered to give all of his massive cliches that one twist that it becomes astoundingly obvious is coming, and it just doesn't get around the fact that 99% of it is still massively cliche. It's more cliche in many ways than a lot of "standard" fantasy that isn't trying half so hard to be subversive. Abercrombie is the worst sort of tedious "gritty fantasy" bandwaggoning...

I ought to copy down this rant for next time, to save me typing it again.

I'd probably agree wholeheartedly based on TBI so far, except that I liked BSC and found it didn't have any of the same troubles I'm having with TBI nor did I find it was too clichey or trying too hard to subvert cliches, either. So I'm not ready to write off Abercrombie, just TBI in particular isn't working for me, I guess.

I'm not sure I read BSC - if I did, I can't remember it being any better, but it's possible that I never got around to it.

[Mentalist]

Grief, on 03 October 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

worry, on 03 October 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

You could also print it out, crumple it up, and cram it.

My post was that bad? Maybe it's a character study...

D, on 03 October 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

Grief, on 03 October 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think QT's right D'rek, you probably shouldn't bother, it's probably just not for you; you having taste and all.

When it comes down to it (as QT's post illustrates rather well, really), his box-ticking approach to "trope subversion" is essentially just as predictable as if he'd not bothered to give all of his massive cliches that one twist that it becomes astoundingly obvious is coming, and it just doesn't get around the fact that 99% of it is still massively cliche. It's more cliche in many ways than a lot of "standard" fantasy that isn't trying half so hard to be subversive. Abercrombie is the worst sort of tedious "gritty fantasy" bandwaggoning...

I ought to copy down this rant for next time, to save me typing it again.

I'd probably agree wholeheartedly based on TBI so far, except that I liked BSC and found it didn't have any of the same troubles I'm having with TBI nor did I find it was too clichey or trying too hard to subvert cliches, either. So I'm not ready to write off Abercrombie, just TBI in particular isn't working for me, I guess.

I'm not sure I read BSC - if I did, I can't remember it being any better, but it's possible that I never got around to it.

BSC was a wonderfully straightforward revenge story (sort of. mostly), with just the rigth amount of Count of Monte Christo vibes in it. It's the only Abercrombie book I've re-read, and would consider doing so again,once it's been about half a year.

The Heroes otoh, I found to be underwhelming and quite tedious at times.

[Abyss]

D, on 03 October 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

Grief, on 03 October 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think QT's right D'rek, you probably shouldn't bother, it's probably just not for you; you having taste and all.

When it comes down to it (as QT's post illustrates rather well, really), his box-ticking approach to "trope subversion" is essentially just as predictable as if he'd not bothered to give all of his massive cliches that one twist that it becomes astoundingly obvious is coming, and it just doesn't get around the fact that 99% of it is still massively cliche. It's more cliche in many ways than a lot of "standard" fantasy that isn't trying half so hard to be subversive. Abercrombie is the worst sort of tedious "gritty fantasy" bandwaggoning...

I ought to copy down this rant for next time, to save me typing it again.

I'd probably agree wholeheartedly based on TBI so far, except that I liked BSC and found it didn't have any of the same troubles I'm having with TBI nor did I find it was too clichey or trying too hard to subvert cliches, either. So I'm not ready to write off Abercrombie, just TBI in particular isn't working for me, I guess.

Let me throw in my two cents cndn...
BSC iN my opinion, is his best book. He raised his game,lot and characters in a huge way from the TFL trilo. You've essentially done what I did with GG Kay... Read his better stuff first, then gone back, and the earlier stuff suffers by comparison.
Heroes, Red... Both great books, but for my money BSC was just a great revenge story told just right.
TFL... Not so much, and especially TBI. I felt everything you posted... Tedious, not that clever, predictable, liked Glotka but everyone else was mostly irritating. And that was most of the book. I was reading basically to see how Glotkas plot went. That said, it has a hell of an ending, and then bk 2 is better and 3 more so. I read all three in a row and as a whole work it shines way brighter than its parts and definitely the first bk.
All of which is to say, maybe hang in there.

[Grief]

Mentalist, on 03 October 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

Grief, on 03 October 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

worry, on 03 October 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

You could also print it out, crumple it up, and cram it.

My post was that bad? Maybe it's a character study...

D, on 03 October 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

Grief, on 03 October 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think QT's right D'rek, you probably shouldn't bother, it's probably just not for you; you having taste and all.

When it comes down to it (as QT's post illustrates rather well, really), his box-ticking approach to "trope subversion" is essentially just as predictable as if he'd not bothered to give all of his massive cliches that one twist that it becomes astoundingly obvious is coming, and it just doesn't get around the fact that 99% of it is still massively cliche. It's more cliche in many ways than a lot of "standard" fantasy that isn't trying half so hard to be subversive. Abercrombie is the worst sort of tedious "gritty fantasy" bandwaggoning...

I ought to copy down this rant for next time, to save me typing it again.

I'd probably agree wholeheartedly based on TBI so far, except that I liked BSC and found it didn't have any of the same troubles I'm having with TBI nor did I find it was too clichey or trying too hard to subvert cliches, either. So I'm not ready to write off Abercrombie, just TBI in particular isn't working for me, I guess.

I'm not sure I read BSC - if I did, I can't remember it being any better, but it's possible that I never got around to it.

BSC was a wonderfully straightforward revenge story (sort of. mostly), with just the rigth amount of Count of Monte Christo vibes in it. It's the only Abercrombie book I've re-read, and would consider doing so again,once it's been about half a year.

The Heroes otoh, I found to be underwhelming and quite tedious at times.

It doesn't really ring a bell, I think I've got a copy but probably never bothered reading it. I can't say you're selling it much either, since the right amount of Monte Cristo for me is close to none -- I much prefer The Three Musketeers.

[Serenity]

Abyss, on 03 October 2014 - 03:50 AM, said:

D, on 03 October 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

Grief, on 03 October 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think QT's right D'rek, you probably shouldn't bother, it's probably just not for you; you having taste and all.

When it comes down to it (as QT's post illustrates rather well, really), his box-ticking approach to "trope subversion" is essentially just as predictable as if he'd not bothered to give all of his massive cliches that one twist that it becomes astoundingly obvious is coming, and it just doesn't get around the fact that 99% of it is still massively cliche. It's more cliche in many ways than a lot of "standard" fantasy that isn't trying half so hard to be subversive. Abercrombie is the worst sort of tedious "gritty fantasy" bandwaggoning...

I ought to copy down this rant for next time, to save me typing it again.

I'd probably agree wholeheartedly based on TBI so far, except that I liked BSC and found it didn't have any of the same troubles I'm having with TBI nor did I find it was too clichey or trying too hard to subvert cliches, either. So I'm not ready to write off Abercrombie, just TBI in particular isn't working for me, I guess.

Let me throw in my two cents cndn...
BSC iN my opinion, is his best book. He raised his game,lot and characters in a huge way from the TFL trilo. You've essentially done what I did with GG Kay... Read his better stuff first, then gone back, and the earlier stuff suffers by comparison.
Heroes, Red... Both great books, but for my money BSC was just a great revenge story told just right.
TFL... Not so much, and especially TBI. I felt everything you posted... Tedious, not that clever, predictable, liked Glotka but everyone else was mostly irritating. And that was most of the book. I was reading basically to see how Glotkas plot went. That said, it has a hell of an ending, and then bk 2 is better and 3 more so. I read all three in a row and as a whole work it shines way brighter than its parts and definitely the first bk.
All of which is to say, maybe hang in there.

Pretty much the same here, although my favourite is The Heroes. I didn't think much of the First Law trilogy when I read it, didn't get what all the fuss was about, so it took me a while to get to the books that followed it, all of which I have really enjoyed.

[Tiste Simeon]

Just chiming in here to say I've never read any of them.

As you were.

[QuickTidal]

I'm reading Jeff Smith's BONE complete collection. Which is a brick to have to carry around on the tranist.

It's good. It's not great yet, but it's really good.

[Mentalist]

Grief, on 03 October 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 03 October 2014 - 03:43 AM, said:

Grief, on 03 October 2014 - 03:18 AM, said:

worry, on 03 October 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

You could also print it out, crumple it up, and cram it.

My post was that bad? Maybe it's a character study...

D, on 03 October 2014 - 02:35 AM, said:

Grief, on 03 October 2014 - 01:50 AM, said:

I think QT's right D'rek, you probably shouldn't bother, it's probably just not for you; you having taste and all.

When it comes down to it (as QT's post illustrates rather well, really), his box-ticking approach to "trope subversion" is essentially just as predictable as if he'd not bothered to give all of his massive cliches that one twist that it becomes astoundingly obvious is coming, and it just doesn't get around the fact that 99% of it is still massively cliche. It's more cliche in many ways than a lot of "standard" fantasy that isn't trying half so hard to be subversive. Abercrombie is the worst sort of tedious "gritty fantasy" bandwaggoning...

I ought to copy down this rant for next time, to save me typing it again.

I'd probably agree wholeheartedly based on TBI so far, except that I liked BSC and found it didn't have any of the same troubles I'm having with TBI nor did I find it was too clichey or trying too hard to subvert cliches, either. So I'm not ready to write off Abercrombie, just TBI in particular isn't working for me, I guess.

I'm not sure I read BSC - if I did, I can't remember it being any better, but it's possible that I never got around to it.

BSC was a wonderfully straightforward revenge story (sort of. mostly), with just the rigth amount of Count of Monte Christo vibes in it. It's the only Abercrombie book I've re-read, and would consider doing so again,once it's been about half a year.

The Heroes otoh, I found to be underwhelming and quite tedious at times.

It doesn't really ring a bell, I think I've got a copy but probably never bothered reading it. I can't say you're selling it much either, since the right amount of Monte Cristo for me is close to none -- I much prefer The Three Musketeers.

20 years later is my favourite Dumas work.

And I'm not trying to sell it. I've no vested interest in Abercrombie, he is far from a "must read" author for me.

Though for some reason after the First Law, he became nearly synonymous with "new", "dark, gritty and realistic" fantasy--not that I particularly agree with it, since he really hasn't done much that Richard Morgan hasn't done earlier.

I will grant Abercrombie that Books 2 and 3 where he gradually reveals the forces moving the events in the world are much more clever in that they are very much more prosaic and thus "realistic", which catches some people's attention. That being siad, I won't call it anything exceptional and after that bit in LAoK (WARNING MAJOR SPOILER DO NOT CLICK IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE BOOK AND EVER INTEND TO)
)

Spoiler

where the Seed turns out to be a nuke

I just couldn't take the world seriously. At that point whatever point Abercrombie might've been making in terms of social commentary completely went out the window for me, and started to treat the series and most of its spinoffs as slightly cerebral action movies--that is, I no longer need it to make sense. And once I stopped trying to treat the books seriously, I've been able to derive more enjoyment out of them.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 03 October 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

I'm reading Jeff Smith's BONE complete collection. Which is a brick to have to carry around on the tranist.

It's good. It's not great yet, but it's really good.

I have that monster. I can't believe you carry it around anywhere.
Don't worry... Smith masterfully and steadily moves it from cute to good to really good, to The AWESOME.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 03 October 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 03 October 2014 - 12:29 PM, said:

I'm reading Jeff Smith's BONE complete collection. Which is a brick to have to carry around on the tranist.

It's good. It's not great yet, but it's really good.

I have that monster. I can't believe you carry it around anywhere.
Don't worry... Smith masterfully and steadily moves it from cute to good to really good, to The AWESOME.

That seems to be the going opinion across the board, so I'm not worried.

It's definitely worth the $40 so far.

[polishgenius]

One of my favourite things about Bone is the nonplussed reaction people get when you show them that the epic 1,000+ page tome you're weighting around is a comic of cutesy cartoon characters.
And then they read it and realise how ridiculously good it is.





Anyway, I'm currently reading American Elsewhere by Robert Jackson Bennett, whose name has been getting a bit of hype because of his most recent book, City of Stairs. I've not read that yet, but if this quality keeps up I suspect I'll do so very soon, because American Elsewhere is shaping up to be really, really good so far.

[Baco Xtath]

polishgenius, on 03 October 2014 - 03:45 PM, said:

One of my favourite things about Bone is the nonplussed reaction people get
Anyway, I'm currently reading American Elsewhere by Robert Jackson Bennett, whose name has been getting a bit of hype because of his most recent book, City of Stairs. I've not read that yet, but if this quality keeps up I suspect I'll do so very soon, because American Elsewhere is shaping up to be really, really good so far.

City of Stairs is really good but I'd suggest reading the Troupe after Elsewhere. It's really damn good. And City is nothing like the other two almost as if written by a different person all-together.

Mostly done with the Skinner and halfway through Kafka by the Shore. Also, almost finished reading the Forever War and at 70% in Ash. All good.

[polishgenius]

I want to read The Troupe, but it doesn't appear to be currently available as an ebook, or at least not an epub.

[Abyss]

polishgenius, on 03 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

I want to read The Troupe, but it doesn't appear to be currently available as an ebook, or at least not an epub.

Your search fu is weak....

http://www.amazon.ca...g=UTF8&sr=&qid=

[polishgenius]

Abyss, on 03 October 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

polishgenius, on 03 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

I want to read The Troupe, but it doesn't appear to be currently available as an ebook, or at least not an epub.

Your search fu is weak....

http://www.amazon.ca...g=UTF8&sr=&qid=

My search-fu is fine. My using-Amazon-fu is weak, though, hence why I need an epub which that isn't.


(cheers for the effort, though. )

[QuickTidal]

Can't you order the tree pulp version?