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Guardian/Keeper of the Deadhouse

#1 User is offline   Rhand 

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Posted 10 November 2022 - 10:55 AM

Just finished Night of Knives and I'm a bit confused.

I DG we learn that Gothos is Guardian/Keeper of the Malaz Deadhouse. Yet in NoK it is Jhenna, and there is no mention of Gothos at all.

So, we could argue that Malaz deadhouse imported Gothos after Jhenna's fall. But if that is true, why did the Azath not do anything similar for Tremorlor when it was in need and why did it have to await the arrival of Moby to get a new Keeper?

Something in that setup is confusing, and I'm curious if I am missing something or if that was an oversight between the two authors.

Also, at some point Temper was appointed guardian by the Nameless One fella. But surely they don't have that power over an Azath house? Or was that more as a "Guardian over the current Keeper"? If so, is he now also Guardian for Gothos? to ensure Gothos never tries to escape? Or if he is in fact Guardian of the Deadhouse, why did he go away at the end, aren't Guardians bound to the Azath House? And does that mean Gothos and Temper are both sharing the role?
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#2 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 10 November 2022 - 04:14 PM

View PostRhand, on 10 November 2022 - 10:55 AM, said:

Just finished Night of Knives and I'm a bit confused.

I DG we learn that Gothos is Guardian/Keeper of the Malaz Deadhouse. Yet in NoK it is Jhenna, and there is no mention of Gothos at all.

So, we could argue that Malaz deadhouse imported Gothos after Jhenna's fall. But if that is true, why did the Azath not do anything similar for Tremorlor when it was in need and why did it have to await the arrival of Moby to get a new Keeper?

Something in that setup is confusing, and I'm curious if I am missing something or if that was an oversight between the two authors.

Also, at some point Temper was appointed guardian by the Nameless One fella. But surely they don't have that power over an Azath house? Or was that more as a "Guardian over the current Keeper"? If so, is he now also Guardian for Gothos? to ensure Gothos never tries to escape? Or if he is in fact Guardian of the Deadhouse, why did he go away at the end, aren't Guardians bound to the Azath House? And does that mean Gothos and Temper are both sharing the role?


Hello, curious as to how far you are into the rest of the series or other Esselmont books? Gothos' role within the Azath Houses is different than others to be very vague.
Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore....
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#3 User is offline   Rhand 

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Posted 10 November 2022 - 04:39 PM

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 10 November 2022 - 04:14 PM, said:

View PostRhand, on 10 November 2022 - 10:55 AM, said:

Just finished Night of Knives and I'm a bit confused.

I DG we learn that Gothos is Guardian/Keeper of the Malaz Deadhouse. Yet in NoK it is Jhenna, and there is no mention of Gothos at all.

So, we could argue that Malaz deadhouse imported Gothos after Jhenna's fall. But if that is true, why did the Azath not do anything similar for Tremorlor when it was in need and why did it have to await the arrival of Moby to get a new Keeper?

Something in that setup is confusing, and I'm curious if I am missing something or if that was an oversight between the two authors.

Also, at some point Temper was appointed guardian by the Nameless One fella. But surely they don't have that power over an Azath house? Or was that more as a "Guardian over the current Keeper"? If so, is he now also Guardian for Gothos? to ensure Gothos never tries to escape? Or if he is in fact Guardian of the Deadhouse, why did he go away at the end, aren't Guardians bound to the Azath House? And does that mean Gothos and Temper are both sharing the role?


Hello, curious as to how far you are into the rest of the series or other Esselmont books? Gothos' role within the Azath Houses is different than others to be very vague.


I read them all before, I am on a reread at the moment.
That being said, the previous read was 5-8 years ago I think. I remember the main storyline, just not the details anymore.
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#4 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 13 November 2022 - 12:57 AM

It's basically just a retcon. Deadhouse Gates sure makes it seem like Gothos is the Guardian of the Deadhouse (even if you could argue the wording doesn't quite explicitly prove that, it certainly leads the reader to believe that). But then in NoK and beyond it is retconned that Gothos was never the specific guardian of the Deadhouse and he instead has... a different role within the Azaths.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#5 User is offline   Rhand 

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Posted 13 November 2022 - 04:59 PM

View PostD, on 13 November 2022 - 12:57 AM, said:

It's basically just a retcon. Deadhouse Gates sure makes it seem like Gothos is the Guardian of the Deadhouse (even if you could argue the wording doesn't quite explicitly prove that, it certainly leads the reader to believe that). But then in NoK and beyond it is retconned that Gothos was never the specific guardian of the Deadhouse and he instead has... a different role within the Azaths.


And yet... Deadhouse Gates, Chapter 23:

Without turning, the guardian spoke in a low, rumbling voice. "Your failure in taking Icarium has been noted."


"Oh yes, Mappo," the guardian cut in. "The Trell. He has walked at Icarium's side too long, it seems.



They just entered Deadhouse in Malaz City. Steven could have described Gothos as "the stranger" or "the Jaghut". But he choose to explicitly write "the guardian".Sometimes I think Erikson simply is given too much credit and these are just errors. Same as for example his inconsistencies with Duiker/the Family, the inconsistency with the ages of certain Family members in regards to each other, etc. (just popped up in my mind because I'm reading House of Chains currently and Admiral Nok is talking about the Family and its disappearance after Kellanved "died".

I think sometimes some of the finer details escaped him and he wrote inconsistencies.
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#6 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 13 November 2022 - 06:10 PM

View PostRhand, on 13 November 2022 - 04:59 PM, said:

View PostD, on 13 November 2022 - 12:57 AM, said:

It's basically just a retcon. Deadhouse Gates sure makes it seem like Gothos is the Guardian of the Deadhouse (even if you could argue the wording doesn't quite explicitly prove that, it certainly leads the reader to believe that). But then in NoK and beyond it is retconned that Gothos was never the specific guardian of the Deadhouse and he instead has... a different role within the Azaths.


And yet... Deadhouse Gates, Chapter 23:

Without turning, the guardian spoke in a low, rumbling voice. "Your failure in taking Icarium has been noted."


"Oh yes, Mappo," the guardian cut in. "The Trell. He has walked at Icarium's side too long, it seems.



They just entered Deadhouse in Malaz City. Steven could have described Gothos as "the stranger" or "the Jaghut". But he choose to explicitly write "the guardian".Sometimes I think Erikson simply is given too much credit and these are just errors. Same as for example his inconsistencies with Duiker/the Family, the inconsistency with the ages of certain Family members in regards to each other, etc. (just popped up in my mind because I'm reading House of Chains currently and Admiral Nok is talking about the Family and its disappearance after Kellanved "died".

I think sometimes some of the finer details escaped him and he wrote inconsistencies.


That's what a retcon means. At the time of writing DG it was intended to be one thing, and then they changed their mind later (or it was a mistake all along).

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#7 User is offline   Rhand 

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Posted 13 November 2022 - 06:14 PM

View PostD, on 13 November 2022 - 06:10 PM, said:

View PostRhand, on 13 November 2022 - 04:59 PM, said:

View PostD, on 13 November 2022 - 12:57 AM, said:

It's basically just a retcon. Deadhouse Gates sure makes it seem like Gothos is the Guardian of the Deadhouse (even if you could argue the wording doesn't quite explicitly prove that, it certainly leads the reader to believe that). But then in NoK and beyond it is retconned that Gothos was never the specific guardian of the Deadhouse and he instead has... a different role within the Azaths.


And yet... Deadhouse Gates, Chapter 23:

Without turning, the guardian spoke in a low, rumbling voice. "Your failure in taking Icarium has been noted."

"Oh yes, Mappo," the guardian cut in. "The Trell. He has walked at Icarium's side too long, it seems.


They just entered Deadhouse in Malaz City. Steven could have described Gothos as "the stranger" or "the Jaghut". But he choose to explicitly write "the guardian".Sometimes I think Erikson simply is given too much credit and these are just errors. Same as for example his inconsistencies with Duiker/the Family, the inconsistency with the ages of certain Family members in regards to each other, etc. (just popped up in my mind because I'm reading House of Chains currently and Admiral Nok is talking about the Family and its disappearance after Kellanved "died".

I think sometimes some of the finer details escaped him and he wrote inconsistencies.


That's what a retcon means. At the time of writing DG it was intended to be one thing, and then they changed their mind later (or it was a mistake all along).


Ah, sorry, English is not my native language, I was focussing more on the "it does not explicitly state so".
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