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Just wondered about peoples opinions on the respective powers of the different species especially the elder ones, so basically which species was the toughest as a whole and particularly individually as there seem to be conflicting evidence in the books.
for example, in MT silchas ruin says the dragons wiped out the forkrul assail as basically they were the only ones who could.
in HoC, Onrack talking to a bone caster (Monock Ochem?) says the t'lan Imass have never defeated a forkrul assail but we know they have killed or stuck under a rock loads of jaghut.
but in GotM, the red dragon (can't remember her name) and four other soletakens were losing their fight against the jaghut tyrant and he didn't have his finnest yet.
also, is Icarium typical for a Jhag, and if so are jhag more powerful than jaghut.
Species power ranking?
#2
Hume 
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Posted 26 October 2005 - 12:09 PM
keep in mind with Raest he was likely the most powerful Jaghut alive and ever, it took many T'lan Imass and even a number of Jaghut to defeat him.
Whether or not if he is more powerful than Gothos is up for debate..
Its my opnion that he is..
With Icarium I thinks it's been discussed that he is quite powerful, but in terms of others eg; Osserc, Olar ethil, Anomander, Silchas, Gothos..Its believed he is just of avearage power of the most powerful. The only reason he is scary is because of his lack of control when it comes to power..
Is he a typical Jhag in power when it comes to power ? We have no idea because he is the only Jhag we know of..
In terms of elder Races in Power; (magic ones)
Eleint/Dragons
Jaghut/Matrons
T'lan Bonecasters.
(non-magic ones)
Forkrul Assail, hands down.
K'chain Che'malle
T'lan Imass
Thats just my opnion on how it goes.. I dont think you would do a Scale of power justice if you didnt seperate the magic to non-magic ones as well.
Whether or not if he is more powerful than Gothos is up for debate..
Its my opnion that he is..
With Icarium I thinks it's been discussed that he is quite powerful, but in terms of others eg; Osserc, Olar ethil, Anomander, Silchas, Gothos..Its believed he is just of avearage power of the most powerful. The only reason he is scary is because of his lack of control when it comes to power..
Is he a typical Jhag in power when it comes to power ? We have no idea because he is the only Jhag we know of..
In terms of elder Races in Power; (magic ones)
Eleint/Dragons
Jaghut/Matrons
T'lan Bonecasters.
(non-magic ones)
Forkrul Assail, hands down.
K'chain Che'malle
T'lan Imass
Thats just my opnion on how it goes.. I dont think you would do a Scale of power justice if you didnt seperate the magic to non-magic ones as well.
#3
Matrim
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Posted 26 October 2005 - 01:34 PM
Quote
Its believed he is just of avearage power of the most powerful. The only reason he is scary is because of his lack of control when it comes to power..
How would you explain that the Jaghut woman that Karsa saved in HoC said that no one had chance against Icarium then? We can't be sure how powerful he is compared with Rake until we see him really going berserk against some of the most powerful characters.
#4 Guest_Dakkareth_*
Posted 26 October 2005 - 03:50 PM
I would say, that only a couple of species can enter the 'collective power' contest - Jaghut for example are solitary by nature as seem Forkrul Assail. Also including personages like Anomander Rake or Olar Ethil makes no sense, because even though they are the most powerful members of their race, they are not representative.
Collectively:
K'Chain Che'Malle
T'lan Imass
Individually:
Jaghut
Forkrul Assail
Andii/Liosan/Edur
T'lan Imass (Bonecasters)
Thelomen Toblakai
Only a suggestion ...
I put the KCCM on top because of their collective nature and the sheer power the matrons wielded. Next and last already our favourite undead. For other species it's very hard to define 'collective power' (EG, shouldn't humans rank first, because collectively they rule the world? Doesn't seem to be what you were asking ...), so I left them out.
As for the individual scale, here too a definite decision is difficult. We know Jaghut as incredibly powerful, but we have mostly seen their elite - Raest, Gothos, Huntress and a few others, who survived the T'lan Imass - which means, that among all Jaghut there were in the past, they are the most powerful or clever. The mother in the MoI prologue dies easily enough to a few mortal Imass' spears ...
On the other hand we know little about Forkrul Assail and Thelomen Toblakai. Is Calm representative for her race or is she to them like Rake is to the Andii? The Seregahl are feared as are Toblakai in general, but apart from that ...
Finally the Imass have produced bonecasters of great power, which is of course a feature of their vow - imagine Tayschrenn as ascendant with 300k years of experience and an Elder Warren at his command. Their natural geniuses have been elevated by the vow.
In conclusion, my suggestion above is far from definite. I would like to see myself as an expert in all matters Malazan, but questions like this would require a re-read with specific attention accorded to the matter ... so, let's keep to speculation
.
Collectively:
K'Chain Che'Malle
T'lan Imass
Individually:
Jaghut
Forkrul Assail
Andii/Liosan/Edur
T'lan Imass (Bonecasters)
Thelomen Toblakai
Only a suggestion ...
I put the KCCM on top because of their collective nature and the sheer power the matrons wielded. Next and last already our favourite undead. For other species it's very hard to define 'collective power' (EG, shouldn't humans rank first, because collectively they rule the world? Doesn't seem to be what you were asking ...), so I left them out.
As for the individual scale, here too a definite decision is difficult. We know Jaghut as incredibly powerful, but we have mostly seen their elite - Raest, Gothos, Huntress and a few others, who survived the T'lan Imass - which means, that among all Jaghut there were in the past, they are the most powerful or clever. The mother in the MoI prologue dies easily enough to a few mortal Imass' spears ...
On the other hand we know little about Forkrul Assail and Thelomen Toblakai. Is Calm representative for her race or is she to them like Rake is to the Andii? The Seregahl are feared as are Toblakai in general, but apart from that ...
Finally the Imass have produced bonecasters of great power, which is of course a feature of their vow - imagine Tayschrenn as ascendant with 300k years of experience and an Elder Warren at his command. Their natural geniuses have been elevated by the vow.
In conclusion, my suggestion above is far from definite. I would like to see myself as an expert in all matters Malazan, but questions like this would require a re-read with specific attention accorded to the matter ... so, let's keep to speculation
.
#5
Imperial Historian
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Posted 26 October 2005 - 06:00 PM
@Dakk
Good to see you back Dakk, your presence has been greatly missed...
To the topic in hand...
I'd agree with your collective groupings of k'chain che'malle who are extrememly powerful especially tehre matrons collectively and the t'lan imass are also impresively powerful as a group.
Individually my list in terms of power, on average, would read:
Eleint
Forkrul Assail
Jaghut
Andii/Liosan/Edur
Thelomen Toblakai
T'lan Imass
I shift the forkrul assail above the jaghut as from the info we have about them: the t'lan imass have very rarely triumphed against them, all races have mentioned fearing them (save perhaps the k'chain), and the forkrul assail were able to prevent the imass enacting their vow of vengeance against some jaghut, suggesting in my mind that they were more powerful than your average jaghut.
I rank the t'lan imass below the toblaki individualy because from what we know there are veyr few bonecasters... in the entire logros tribe onrack listed only 7? 8? bonecasters, from a group number many thousands that isnt significant enough to promote the average individual imass above the average individual toblakai in my mind.
Good to see you back Dakk, your presence has been greatly missed...
To the topic in hand...
I'd agree with your collective groupings of k'chain che'malle who are extrememly powerful especially tehre matrons collectively and the t'lan imass are also impresively powerful as a group.
Individually my list in terms of power, on average, would read:
Eleint
Forkrul Assail
Jaghut
Andii/Liosan/Edur
Thelomen Toblakai
T'lan Imass
I shift the forkrul assail above the jaghut as from the info we have about them: the t'lan imass have very rarely triumphed against them, all races have mentioned fearing them (save perhaps the k'chain), and the forkrul assail were able to prevent the imass enacting their vow of vengeance against some jaghut, suggesting in my mind that they were more powerful than your average jaghut.
I rank the t'lan imass below the toblaki individualy because from what we know there are veyr few bonecasters... in the entire logros tribe onrack listed only 7? 8? bonecasters, from a group number many thousands that isnt significant enough to promote the average individual imass above the average individual toblakai in my mind.
#6
Abyss
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Posted 26 October 2005 - 06:41 PM
This is a serious case of special individuals not being indicative of the whole.
Sure, every undead imass still linked to the Ritual can go dusty, take rediculous amounts of damage (whoops, thar goes mah head!), and see whatever magic vision thingies they seem to be able to see. But Tool was First Sword, Onrack was acknowledged to be a particularly talented ex-bonecaster, and not even all bonecasters are created equal.
But i'm betting not every FA was a powerhouse like Calm and Serenity. Though they definitely need cooler names.
And a KC Kell Hunter was an elite troop, as opposed to the standard KC 'drones'. And the Shorttails were smaller, but smarter.
And there seem to be so many different versions of Toblakai i wouldn't know where to begin, other than to point out Karsa was atypical, as is Icarium for Jhags, Mappo for Trells, Gothos and Raest for Jaghut, etc, etc.
We've really seen more of the exceptional individuals of the races, rather than the norms.
- Abyss, more than average.
Sure, every undead imass still linked to the Ritual can go dusty, take rediculous amounts of damage (whoops, thar goes mah head!), and see whatever magic vision thingies they seem to be able to see. But Tool was First Sword, Onrack was acknowledged to be a particularly talented ex-bonecaster, and not even all bonecasters are created equal.
But i'm betting not every FA was a powerhouse like Calm and Serenity. Though they definitely need cooler names.
And a KC Kell Hunter was an elite troop, as opposed to the standard KC 'drones'. And the Shorttails were smaller, but smarter.
And there seem to be so many different versions of Toblakai i wouldn't know where to begin, other than to point out Karsa was atypical, as is Icarium for Jhags, Mappo for Trells, Gothos and Raest for Jaghut, etc, etc.
We've really seen more of the exceptional individuals of the races, rather than the norms.
- Abyss, more than average.
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#7 Guest_Sytkan_*
Posted 26 October 2005 - 10:59 PM
ppl are underestimating the andii, it is mentioned in moi that a full galain unveiling of only 40 andi could wipe out a cont, from my nderstanding, all of rakes andiii can use galain. we neeed to rethink the tiste, prsuming the liosan are similar
#8
Tiste Simeon
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Posted 26 October 2005 - 11:55 PM
HUME said:
keep in mind with Raest he was likely the most powerful Jaghut alive and ever, it took many T'lan Imass and even a number of Jaghut to defeat him.
Whether or not if he is more powerful than Gothos is up for debate..
Its my opnion that he is..
Whether or not if he is more powerful than Gothos is up for debate..
Its my opnion that he is..
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#9
vaiski
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Posted 27 October 2005 - 09:31 AM
Sytkan said:
ppl are underestimating the andii, it is mentioned in moi that a full galain unveiling of only 40 andi could wipe out a cont, from my nderstanding, all of rakes andiii can use galain. we neeed to rethink the tiste, prsuming the liosan are similar
Weirdish thing here is that in MoI, Rake saw fitting a full unveiling of all 1100 Andii, and they were 'only' going against a Jaghut and a Matron. Plus few odd sorcerers and whatnot. Not underestimating Jaghut and Matron, but it still seems bit over the top..
#10
garden_rake
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Posted 27 October 2005 - 09:47 AM
Sytkan said:
ppl are underestimating the andii, it is mentioned in moi that a full galain unveiling of only 40 andi could wipe out a cont, from my nderstanding, all of rakes andiii can use galain. we neeed to rethink the tiste, prsuming the liosan are similar
i agree with the andii and the liosan but as a general race the edur cant be put up there with them, their fighting skills are good but not exceptional but more importantly their magical potential is very limited compared to the other tistes.....
on a side note (this may belong in the crazeee theories thread) but does anyone think we will see the return of the dragons? we caught a hint that some are about in HOC when lostara and pearl find the otataral dragon (i think pearl says it looks as if other dragons were here recently). I know SD has been sealed but humour me........ imagine a scenario where the crippled god succeeds in poisoning everything and is on the verge of destroying the world - cue an army of elient charging out from SD and opening an extra large can of whoooop-ass on him.....
#12
Set'alahd Crool
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Posted 27 October 2005 - 01:21 PM
Dunno about the Q&A, but Featherwitch certainly gives us warning that dragons will start interfering. She said they were willing to destroy the world to get vengeance, or something like that. In fact dragons are an important part of MT. We're being given little insights about them, so we might understand what they're at and why. When they're at it, that is.
#13 Guest_Sytkan_*
Posted 27 October 2005 - 01:44 PM
vaiski said:
Weirdish thing here is that in MoI, Rake saw fitting a full unveiling of all 1100 Andii, and they were 'only' going against a Jaghut and a Matron. Plus few odd sorcerers and whatnot. Not underestimating Jaghut and Matron, but it still seems bit over the top..
mayb he sensed something of the cruippled godas presence and power,probably just didnt want to take any chances. but what would a full unveiling with 1100 do anyway... destroy they universe?
#14
Set'alahd Crool
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Posted 27 October 2005 - 02:26 PM
What would it do? Look at Coral. Or should I say Black Coral? I'm pretty sure that was a full enveiling. At least QB seemed to think so at the time. I know character knowledge is imperfect in MBotF(thankfully!), but this is the kind of thing QB would know, right? Anyway, despite Korlat's fears, it didn't destroy the continent. Thanks mainly, I'm sure, to Rake's controll.
#15 Guest_Sytkan_*
Posted 27 October 2005 - 09:51 PM
wasnt a full unveiling... a full nveiling would have destroyed the continent. thats with only 40 andi (thats what happened at nthe chaining, wasnt it?)
#16
Set'alahd Crool
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Posted 28 October 2005 - 12:23 AM
I'm just taking Quick's qord for it....And coral now lies more within KG than the malazan world. I doubt anything but a full unveiling could be so permanent. I mean just opening your warren wouldn't normally relocate a city to another realm, would it?
#18
Jorram
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Posted 28 October 2005 - 06:48 AM
Quote
Weirdish thing here is that in MoI, Rake saw fitting a full unveiling of all 1100 Andii, and they were 'only' going against a Jaghut and a Matron. Plus few odd sorcerers and whatnot. Not underestimating Jaghut and Matron, but it still seems bit over the top..
Maybe it was due to the Crippled God's hand in this. I know it was exactly against the CG that 40 Andii turned out sufficient in the past, but maybe Rake feared that CG's powers tunneled through and entwined with Matron's and Pannion's was a threat enough
#19 Guest_Wraith_*
Posted 28 October 2005 - 11:20 AM
thanks for all the feed back.
Firstly i apologise, i should have stated that i did not mean for ascendents like rake to be compared to others when evaluating species power levels, obviously he is not the norm but, saying that, if people want to discuss it feel free.
My take on the coral incident was that yes it was a full unveiling, but they did this due to the taint of the crippled god. Korlat states that their warren is also infected and later Kallor says they would need a full unveiling to cleanse it. now kallor may be wright or wrong but if we assume he is correct then they used a full unveiling to overcome the taint rather than because they needed all that power to take down corral, and actually only used a small amount of the power available to tham against corral.
possibly they feared losing control if they had only done a partial unveilling, and even a partial unveiling would have enough power to do serious damage if they lost control.
personnally I would rate the species like this:
Dragons
k'chain chemalle
forkrul assail
tiste andii
jaghut
on individuals
dragon
k'chain chemalle (matron)
jaghut (tyrant with its finnest)
forkrul assail
tiste andii
i have not included the edur or liosian because they are much different today than they were then.
I would put the edur with the andii based on how they were in scabandarii's day before the warren was shattered but now, before the crippled god became involved i would say they were much weaker.
Same for the liosian assuming they didn't always need to rely on wierd blood rituals to access their warren.
Firstly i apologise, i should have stated that i did not mean for ascendents like rake to be compared to others when evaluating species power levels, obviously he is not the norm but, saying that, if people want to discuss it feel free.
My take on the coral incident was that yes it was a full unveiling, but they did this due to the taint of the crippled god. Korlat states that their warren is also infected and later Kallor says they would need a full unveiling to cleanse it. now kallor may be wright or wrong but if we assume he is correct then they used a full unveiling to overcome the taint rather than because they needed all that power to take down corral, and actually only used a small amount of the power available to tham against corral.
possibly they feared losing control if they had only done a partial unveilling, and even a partial unveiling would have enough power to do serious damage if they lost control.
personnally I would rate the species like this:
Dragons
k'chain chemalle
forkrul assail
tiste andii
jaghut
on individuals
dragon
k'chain chemalle (matron)
jaghut (tyrant with its finnest)
forkrul assail
tiste andii
i have not included the edur or liosian because they are much different today than they were then.
I would put the edur with the andii based on how they were in scabandarii's day before the warren was shattered but now, before the crippled god became involved i would say they were much weaker.
Same for the liosian assuming they didn't always need to rely on wierd blood rituals to access their warren.
#20 Guest_Sytkan_*
Posted 28 October 2005 - 11:22 AM
hey heres another quote that says that the andii could be the most powerful species: from gotm p211 uk paperback
"in the alchemists library lay copies of the surviving tomes of gothos' folly, jaghut writings from millenia past. in them tiste andii were mentioned here and there with an aura of fear, baruk recalled. gothos himself , a jaghut wizard who had decended the deepest warrens of elder magic , hadf praised the gods of the time that the tisteb andii were so few in number. and if anything, they had dwindled since then"
gothos himself was scared of the tiste andii, he was one of the most powerful jaghut ever. we definitely need to revise our estimations of the power of the andii
"in the alchemists library lay copies of the surviving tomes of gothos' folly, jaghut writings from millenia past. in them tiste andii were mentioned here and there with an aura of fear, baruk recalled. gothos himself , a jaghut wizard who had decended the deepest warrens of elder magic , hadf praised the gods of the time that the tisteb andii were so few in number. and if anything, they had dwindled since then"
gothos himself was scared of the tiste andii, he was one of the most powerful jaghut ever. we definitely need to revise our estimations of the power of the andii
