[LinearPhilosopher]

amphibian, on 22 October 2020 - 08:20 PM, said:

Invoke Prejudice has people wearing KKK robes and the card itself has to do with color based rejection. It is also illustrated by a man who was then and is now a very, very verbose neo Nazi and white supremacist. He does not hide it whatsoever anymore and was booted from the group of artists associated with the game long ago.

Cleanse is racist due to "racial cleansing" as it only destroys black creatures and is a white card.

Stone Throwing Devils is a phrase that people use about Muslims and has racist connotations.

Jihad is a bad representation of the islamic concept of Jihad and slides into racism with its implementation of white creatures getting stronger.

Imprison comes off too much like enslavement of a black person in the art.

I thank you for the explanation. Im curious why WoTC didnt outright state why they are banned, their site just says its banned. Feels like a bit of a cop out to not be upfront about why they did that.

This post has been edited by LinearPhilosopher: 23 October 2020 - 03:17 PM

[amphibian]

There is a significant portion of the fantasy and gaming audience that is very happy to spend days and months on disingenuous arguments as to why Invoke Prejudice (one of the most vividly racist things I've seen) is not racist.

Getting into the discussion weeds with that group of people is not worth the time. They mostly aren't going to suddenly understand and want their bigotry to be unchallenged. So it's easier and healthier to say unequivocally that these cards are racist and let people sort themselves out.

I've been talking to people for years at this point about these cards (plus a few more) and learning about the shitty practices of WotC as a company. The company attitude is a hard and slow thing to change as a whole and for every embrace of something good, there's a crappy practice or action that's needing to not happen going forwards. The Mike Mearls thing is a classic example of "what the hell is wrong with the decision making people?"

[LinearPhilosopher]

amphibian, on 23 October 2020 - 04:28 PM, said:

There is a significant portion of the fantasy and gaming audience that is very happy to spend days and months on disingenuous arguments as to why Invoke Prejudice (one of the most vividly racist things I've seen) is not racist.

Getting into the discussion weeds with that group of people is not worth the time. They mostly aren't going to suddenly understand and want their bigotry to be unchallenged. So it's easier and healthier to say unequivocally that these cards are racist and let people sort themselves out.

I've been talking to people for years at this point about these cards (plus a few more) and learning about the shitty practices of WotC as a company. The company attitude is a hard and slow thing to change as a whole and for every embrace of something good, there's a crappy practice or action that's needing to not happen going forwards. The Mike Mearls thing is a classic example of "what the hell is wrong with the decision making people?"

It may be easier but is it neccesarily the ethical thing to do? I asked about invoke predjudice as i just saw some robed people/ghosts and didn't make the association with the KKK. If WoTC was to outright say these cards are racist, and this is why, you're taking a more powerful stance on the issue.

Granted a good portion of their customers are as you described so they are likely looking after their bottom line as opposed to doing the right thing.

[Obdigore]

As has been noted in this thread, there are a group of super right wing people who play WoTC games. These people are the very... 'not arguing in good faith' group that Amphibian has been talking about.

WoTC has been doing a thing where they try to straddle the line between 'doing whats right' and 'not hearing a vocal minority bitch up a storm'.

It's interesting to me that Critical Role just launched a TTRPG studio. While their current lineup doesn't include source/rulebooks for a RPG like DnD, it certainly could in the future. The only thing challenging WoTC in that realm right now is Paizo, and that's more of a 'good try if you already play Pathfinder, but ...' compared to the moneymaker and engagement that 5e gets, but then Critical Role is the biggest TTRPG stream ever. If they move to something else, I wonder how many people will give that other thing a try.

Ironically, looks like DnD is currently Hasbro's big moneymaker, I wonder how long Hasbro will let this kind of 'half in, half out' thing go on at WoTC.

[amphibian]

LinearPhilosopher, on 27 October 2020 - 09:04 PM, said:

amphibian, on 23 October 2020 - 04:28 PM, said:

There is a significant portion of the fantasy and gaming audience that is very happy to spend days and months on disingenuous arguments as to why Invoke Prejudice (one of the most vividly racist things I've seen) is not racist.

Getting into the discussion weeds with that group of people is not worth the time. They mostly aren't going to suddenly understand and want their bigotry to be unchallenged. So it's easier and healthier to say unequivocally that these cards are racist and let people sort themselves out.

I've been talking to people for years at this point about these cards (plus a few more) and learning about the shitty practices of WotC as a company. The company attitude is a hard and slow thing to change as a whole and for every embrace of something good, there's a crappy practice or action that's needing to not happen going forwards. The Mike Mearls thing is a classic example of "what the hell is wrong with the decision making people?"

It may be easier but is it neccesarily the ethical thing to do? I asked about invoke predjudice as i just saw some robed people/ghosts and didn't make the association with the KKK. If WoTC was to outright say these cards are racist, and this is why, you're taking a more powerful stance on the issue.

Granted a good portion of their customers are as you described so they are likely looking after their bottom line as opposed to doing the right thing.

I talked this over with a friend and I think you're right about a need for as much clarity as possible regarding the "why" of banning the racist cards and easier access to the rationale in the list.

My idea is to have a short explanation after each card banned for racism as there are people who aren't familiar with what cultural practices or history makes those cards racist. I'll pitch it to the leaders of one particular format of Magic (Commander) and see if they do it.

[Werthead]

Mentalist, on 23 October 2020 - 02:36 PM, said:

Wasn't the last thing Weiss wrote in Dragonlance the Isha books?

It was the Lost Chronicles trilogy. The last book published in that trilogy, in 2009, was the last thing either of them wrote for Dragonlance.

Quote

Ironically, looks like DnD is currently Hasbro's big moneymaker, I wonder how long Hasbro will let this kind of 'half in, half out' thing go on at WoTC.

D&D is more popular than it's ever been before, but it's not making as much money as Hasbro's key, core toy lines. It's doing very well and its current level of success is something that I believe has taken both WotC and Hasbro by surprise and they're not quite sure how to deal with it.

There has been an interesting change in direction at Hasbro recently, though. They've seen the rise of board gaming as a thing and apparently directed WotC through their Avalon Hill subsidiary to focus on the board game market. That resulted in...a few variant Axis & Allies games and a few more standalone D&D board games. Which is nice, but it's not really what Hasbro wanted, which is their own Gloomhaven, their own Ticket to Ride, their own Memoir 44 etc. Then there's been a new digital version of Axis & Allies which has been a bit of a fiasco, and again not what Hasbro wanted. Apparently Hasbro got so irritated that they've detached Avalon Hill from WotC and made them their own division with more money and authority, and the first thing they've done is a very successful Hero Quest relaunch crowdfunder (almost at $3 million, despite people asking why Hasbro - market value somewhere vastly north of $12 billion - need to do a crowdfunder for anything). So there's signs there that WotC have been incompetent as well.

Today they announced a D&D TV series is in development, but Hasbro are dealing with studios directly and so far have left WotC out of the loop. It makes me wonder if they're going to clean house with Wizards, pull out the shitheels and find some new blood to take over who aren't thoroughly objectionable people.

[amphibian]

Kelman has been given more and more responsibility as time went on, so I think the faith in Hasbro "pulling out the shit heels" should be rather low.

[Werthead]

Weis & Hickman end legal case.

They terminated the lawsuit and are promising "exciting news," so it sounds like Wizards folded and reinstated the book contract.

[amphibian]

Wonder what Kelman's status will be post settlement.

[QuickTidal]

Werthead, on 19 December 2020 - 11:31 PM, said:

Weis & Hickman end legal case.

They terminated the lawsuit and are promising "exciting news," so it sounds like Wizards folded and reinstated the book contract.

Oh I hope so!

Thanks for the update!

[Werthead]

Wizards fold like a pack of cards.

The irony here is of course that the controversy means this trilogy will sell a lot more copies than if they'd just published it in the first place.

[Abyss]

Werthead, on 25 January 2021 - 04:45 PM, said:

Wizards fold like a pack of cards.
...


The setting has previously seen some controversy. In 2008 urban fantasy author Jim Butcher was approached by WotC to spearhead a full reboot of the entire Dragonlance saga, including rewriting the original trilogy as a five-book series. Butcher would only proceed with Weis and Hickman's blessing and, when that was not forthcoming, the project was abandoned.

I did not know about this.
Kudos to Butcher, but wtf were WotC thinking????

[amphibian]

I don't know about what was happening in 2008. WotC has seen enormous turnover in the story departments of several arms and in general, Hasbro has increasingly put pressure on WotC to make more and more money by pushing out product as fast as possible.

The Magic arm was asked to double profits from 2019 to 2020. I think they might have done so, but it came with a tsunami of different products and creative ways to get money out of customers. Hasbro has not had a great time over the last decade with all their lines, especially after Toys'R'Us filed for bankruptcy. They've leaned hard on WotC to make big money ASAP.

I have a strong feeling the D&D arm, especially the Weis and Hickman related components, was under similar pressure and just about every part of it was mismanaged thoroughly.

[QuickTidal]

So the first new book comes out August 2nd and is called DRAGONS OF DECEIT, and it has a synopsis (I'll post the cover art as well, in case some haven't seen it)


Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman return to the unforgettable world of the New York Times bestselling Dragonlance series as a new heroine—desperate to restore her beloved father to life—sets off on a quest to change time.

Destina Rosethorn—as her name implies—believes herself to be a favored child of destiny. But when her father dies in the War of the Lance, she watches her carefully constructed world come crashing down. She loses not only her beloved father but also the legacy he has left her: the family lands and castle. To save her father, she hatches a bold plan—to go back in time and prevent his death.

First, she has to secure the Device of Time Journeying, last known to be in the possession of the spirited kender Tasslehoff Burrfoot. But to change time, she’ll need another magical artifact—the most powerful and dangerous artifact ever created. Destina’s quest takes her from the dwarven kingdom of Thorbardin to the town of Solace and beyond, setting in motion a chain of disastrous events that threaten to divert the course of the River of Time, alter the past, and forever change the future.


Okay so this sounds dope....also Tas and the Device of Time Magical Time Journeying are ALWAYS a romp. Excited to meet the new protagonist and see who else shows up! It's going to be like being a kid all over again to read a BRAND NEW DRAGONLANCE novel! Pardon me while I grin from ear to ear.


Cover, spoilered for size. Also, can we talk about how artist Phillipp A. Urlich is 1000% aping Matt Stawicki's art for the rest of the previous DL series, but with his own flair and how GOOD it looks? Can't wait to see what the rest of the trilogy covers will look like!

Spoiler

 DoD.jpg (625.06K)
Number of downloads: 0

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 28 June 2022 - 01:15 PM

[Abyss]

Interesting.
Dragonlance was generating VERY good materials for a while for books and gaming, but it really got lost. I know DRAGONLANCE has a lot of nostalgic fans, but am doubting this is going to lead to major dollars and a resurgence. D&D fans now are all about streaming and cosplay personalities and homebrew worlds... a sequel to a dead tree series that was last popular in the 90s feels a bit like a hail mary pass.

That blurb kind of screams 'TIMELINE REBOOT'. Dragonlance did timey whimey shenanigans way before it became trendy, but doing it now seems a little too much like DC Warner putting all their hopes and dreams into a FLASH movie to hit restart on their movieverse (minus Ezra Miller turning out to be the Reverse Flash in real life).

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 28 June 2022 - 05:47 PM, said:

That blurb kind of screams 'TIMELINE REBOOT'.

To be fair, them wanting to wipe out the Chaos War, and The Age of Mortals and want a reset would be pretty on point to refresh the series. I dislike the Chaos War, but I actually enjoy a LOT of the Age of Mortals content, and I loved SOULS (the last time that wily Kender messed with time)....so I'd be both annoyed and happy by a timeline reboot from the War of the Lance forward...

But whatever, I'm just happy I'll get a new trilogy, whatever form it takes.