[Cyphon]

https://www.tor.com/...ward-finalists/

Thoughts?

Lots there that I recognise which is an intriguing trend.

But I've only read one of the first few categories, For he can creep. So not clue who should or will likely win.

Congratulations to Wert for getting the best fan writer nomination too!

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 08 April 2020 - 08:20 AM

[QuickTidal]

The Hugo’s are such a circle jerk. It’s almost always the same usual suspects across the board with the odd change up or newbie thrown in.

Can’t stand it.

[amphibian]

QuickTidal, on 07 April 2020 - 11:32 PM, said:

The Hugo’s are such a circle jerk. It’s almost always the same usual suspects across the board with the odd change up or newbie thrown in.

Can’t stand it.

You have to be fucking joking. Look at the nominees.

[Cyphon]

QuickTidal, on 07 April 2020 - 11:32 PM, said:

The Hugo’s are such a circle jerk. It’s almost always the same usual suspects across the board with the odd change up or newbie thrown in.

Can’t stand it.

Is there a better set of awards in your view then? I'm not wedded to the Hugos but I don't know of any others bar the Nebulas.

[Maark Abbott]

I am super out of touch with modern releases, I don't recognise any of those names.

[Werthead]

There's always been a touch of cliqueness about the Hugos. Seanan Mcguire - inoffensively mediocre, readable but forgettable - being nominated for every book and/or series she puts out regardless of quality has always been a bit strange, and John Scalzi and Neil Gaiman (winning for under-par work whilst his really good stuff never got close to winning) before that.

Apart from the Best Fan Writer category, obviously, where the award nominators have proven themselves to be of impeccable taste and undoubted moral character.

Maark Abbott, on 08 April 2020 - 11:56 AM, said:

I am super out of touch with modern releases, I don't recognise any of those names.

Even Kameron Hurley, one of the finest SFF writers of the 2010? Not sure if THE LIGHT BRIGADE is her best novel, but it's certainly her most approachable.

[Tiste Simeon]

Werthead, on 08 April 2020 - 12:11 PM, said:

Apart from the Best Fan Writer category, obviously, where the award nominators have proven themselves to be of impeccable taste and undoubted moral character.

I hear they're very good looking too?

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 08 April 2020 - 02:35 AM, said:

QuickTidal, on 07 April 2020 - 11:32 PM, said:

The Hugo’s are such a circle jerk. It’s almost always the same usual suspects across the board with the odd change up or newbie thrown in.

Can’t stand it.

You have to be fucking joking. Look at the nominees.

I'm mainly talking about novels, the tv film categories are always middling to fine as usual.

I find that people like McGuire, and Hurley, both of whom I find caustic as hell personality-wise...and toxic...get nominated far too much over the years. Anders books always rub me the wrong way, she should have stuck with writing reviews at io9. and even then I feel like she was always wrong. The newbies who get nominated I feel are the buzz-worthy novels that the Hugo's can't ignore in favour of their usual suspects...like McGuire or Hurley or others.

And I guess my main thing is to contrast and compare with the GoodReads awards which are a MUCH larger pool of audience, a much more open list of noms and gets a far better variety of nominees and winners.

Here were the Fantasy nominees for 2019 GR Awards (chosen by the people, not the Hugo's people who buy a membership):

THE NINTH HOUSE by Leigh Bardugo
THE STARLESS SEA by Erin Morgenstern
FIRE & BLOOD by GRRM
THE PRIORY OF THE ORANGE TREE by Samantha Shannon
THE RED SCROLLS OF MAGIC by Cassandra Clare
THE WINTER OF THE WITCH by Katherine Arden
OF BLOOD AND BONE by Nora Roberts
STORM CURSED by Patricia Briggs
BLACK LEOPARD, RED WOLF by Marlon James
MIDDLE GAME by McGuire
TEN THOUSAND DOORS OF JANUARY by Harrow
GODS OF JADE AND SHADOW by Silvia Moreno-Garcia
KINGDOM OF COPPER by S. A. Chakraborty
DARKDAWN by Jay Kristoff
MAGIC FOR LIARS by Sarah Gailey
THE BURNING WHITE by Brent Weeks
AGE OF LEGEND by Michael J. Sullivan
A LITTLE HATRED by Joe Abercrombie
HOLY SISTER by Lawrence

THE NINTH HOUSE won.

Now, contrast and compare with the Hugo noms...there are two crossovers from the Hugos novel noms (McGuire and Harrow). This tells me that the people voting for the Hugos (World Science Fiction Society attendees...probaly in the thousands?) are the same people and vote for either their old favourites, or newbies with buzz...no middle ground. Meanwhile over 4million people vote in the GR awards and I feel it's a much more fruitful endeavour indicative of GOOD SFF, rather than buzzworthy or the authors you like.

I'm sure this is just me, but it's my opinion and that's why I have it.

Werthead, on 08 April 2020 - 12:11 PM, said:

There's always been a touch of cliqueness about the Hugos. Seanan Mcguire - inoffensively mediocre, readable but forgettable - being nominated for every book and/or series she puts out regardless of quality has always been a bit strange, and John Scalzi and Neil Gaiman (winning for under-par work whilst his really good stuff never got close to winning) before that.

Yes, agreed.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 08 April 2020 - 12:26 PM

[Werthead]

QuickTidal, on 08 April 2020 - 12:23 PM, said:

I'm mainly talking about novels, the tv film categories are always middling to fine as usual.

The movie category is pretty contentious this year: RISE OF THE SKYWALKER is by some margin the worst-received of the new STAR WARS trilogy and has managed the unique accomplishment of uniting people who loved and hated THE LAST JEDI against it. Lots of grumbling it's on the list.

Quote

I find that people like McGuire, and Hurley, both of whom I find caustic as hell personality-wise...and toxic...get nominated far too much over the years. Anders books always rub me the wrong way, she should have stuck with writing reviews at io9. and even then I feel like she was always wrong. The newbies who get nominated I feel are the buzz-worthy novels that the Hugo's can't ignore in favour of their usual suspects...like McGuire or Hurley or others.

Agreed on McGuire, but Hurley I find to be a constantly inventive and interesting author. My only complaint about THE LIGHT BRIGADES being on the list is that's also her "safest" book when none of the superior BEL DAME APOCRYPHA quartet was nominated, but it appears to be her most successful and is certainly her most approachable novel to date. I don't think it will win, as it's a bit too close to its inspiration (THE FOREVER WAR) in structure.

Quote

And I guess my main thing is to contrast and compare with the GoodReads awards which are a MUCH larger pool of audience, a much more open list of noms and gets a far better variety of nominees and winners.

Here were the Fantasy nominees for 2019 GR Awards (chosen by the people, not the Hugo's people who buy a membership):

THE NINTH HOUSE by Leigh Bardugo
THE STARLESS SEA by Erin Morgenstern
FIRE & BLOOD by GRRM
THE PRIORY OF THE ORANGE TREE by Samantha Shannon
THE RED SCROLLS OF MAGIC by Cassandra Clare
THE WINTER OF THE WITCH by Katherine Arden
OF BLOOD AND BONE by Nora Roberts
STORM CURSED by Patricia Briggs
BLACK LEOPARD, RED WOLF by Marlon James
MIDDLE GAME by McGuire
TEN THOUSAND DOORS OF JANUARY by Harrow
GODS OF JADE AND SHADOW by Silvia Moreno-Garcia
KINGDOM OF COPPER by S. A. Chakraborty
DARKDAWN by Jay Kristoff
MAGIC FOR LIARS by Sarah Gailey
THE BURNING WHITE by Brent Weeks
AGE OF LEGEND by Michael J. Sullivan
A LITTLE HATRED by Joe Abercrombie
HOLY SISTER by Lawrence

THE NINTH HOUSE won.

Now, contrast and compare with the Hugo noms...there are two crossovers from the Hugos novel noms (McGuire and Harrow). This tells me that the people voting for the Hugos (World Science Fiction Society attendees...probaly in the thousands?) are the same people and vote for either their old favourites, or newbies with buzz...no middle ground. Meanwhile over 4million people vote in the GR awards and I feel it's a much more fruitful endeavour indicative of GOOD SFF, rather than buzzworthy or the authors you like.

If your shortlist has 15 places on it, then clearly it is going to be a more diverse list than one with only 6. What is really interesting - and this isn't a point you've made - is that it seems to confirm the recent rise of female authors to a position of dominance in the genre. In the Hugos I've seen it argued that women-majority lists and women winning every year for five years in a row has been an artificial situation, but if the Goodreads list with millions of nominating votes has an imbalance of 12 to 19, that seems to back up the position that women have simply been putting out stronger and more original genre work for the last few years. It's particularly striking that, apart from Marlon James, every male author on the list is a long-established author with a long-tail fanbase which isn't really true of the women (apart from McGuire and maybe arguably Bardugo).

In fact, I think the list shows that the Hugos aren't doing "their normal thing." Marlon James and Silvia Moreno-Garcia are authors of colour with accomplished, "diverse" novels that are pretty good. They're also both "mainstream" authors with a lot of lit-cred dipping their toes into the SFF field, which normally Hugo voters absolutely love and cling to like limpets (such as with the victory for THE YIDDISH POLICEMEN'S UNION). Neither making it I think is much more surprising than them being left off it.

[QuickTidal]

Werthead, on 08 April 2020 - 03:12 PM, said:

but Hurley I find to be a constantly inventive and interesting author. My only complaint about THE LIGHT BRIGADES being on the list is that's also her "safest" book when none of the superior BEL DAME APOCRYPHA quartet was nominated, but it appears to be her most successful and is certainly her most approachable novel to date. I don't think it will win, as it's a bit too close to its inspiration (THE FOREVER WAR) in structure.

My issues with Hurley dip into a long ago blog post she made (in quasi-defence of the activities of a certain troll in SFF) where she basically (IIRC) said that sock-puppeting online was okay, and that it could be even therapeutic...her defence of that position was that because she'd experienced a life-threatening illness that it was okay to use a fake face online to prevent your psyche from getting scarred using your real name.

I not only disagreed, I found it reprehensible. And I have never forgotten. I have read none of her work since that blog post, and I won't support her in any way.

So my dislike spins off that probably. But then, I'm a grudge-holder with the money-I-give-to-authors category.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 08 April 2020 - 03:25 PM

[Cyphon]

I dont get the caustic/dislike view of either of them. Maybe I've missed something.

Werts point on the makeup of the GR shortlist are well made.

I get Quick's point on whether you can separate author from their art and I think that has been discussed unto death before on the forum. I suppose I'm pleading ignorance on the authors in question. I dont think that's a problem in terms of spearing the quality of the art for the awards, as opposed to giving them your money. But if you cant judge their art because you wont give them your money I guess it's a pointless discussion.

I suppose the question is who would people swap out of the nomination list as great pieces of SFF work published the past year? And can people separate them from what they thought of the book and/or the author? I haven't read anything published this year that qualifies I think so hard for me to input but curious to hear others thoughts.

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 08 April 2020 - 07:04 PM

[QuickTidal]

Cyphon, on 08 April 2020 - 06:43 PM, said:

I dont get the caustic/dislike view of either of them. Maybe I've missed something.

I explained my dislike Hurley, and McGuire I went on about it in the reading thread, it had to do with the presenter one year and her assumptions/insecurities that were then wielded by her fanbase like a twitter mallet. It was unkind, and her apology was...lacking.

Cyphon, on 08 April 2020 - 06:43 PM, said:

Werts point on the makeup of the GR shortlist are well made.

I agree, but even the long list that are included that the short list is made from for the Hugos is filled with the usual suspects.

Cyphon, on 08 April 2020 - 06:43 PM, said:

I get Quick's point on whether you can separate author from their art and I think that has been discussed unto death before on the forum. Still don't know where I stand on that point.

I decided years ago that there were too many books in the world and too many decent authors...to bother patronizing the ones who did things that irritate me in real life. I don't mind making that call. I don't feel I'm missing out on much.

Cyphon, on 08 April 2020 - 06:43 PM, said:

I suppose the question is who would people swap out of the nomination list as great pieces of SFF work published the past year?

It's a great question, but I think I'll just wait for this years Good Reads Awards again and see what comes to the top and if I agree. Interestingly a few years one or two of my fave books that year were missing from the list and then got added in write-in's becuase enough people squawked that it wasn't present. I like that. Makes me know that people really are voting with their hearts and minds and not just for the "in" author who gets nominated no matter what drew they shovel out.

I should note, I didn't mean to derail your thread Cyphon and I apologize if I have done. I probably should have kept my mouth shut. Apologies.

[Cyphon]

Dont worry about derailing Quick! I'd rather you and others said what you thought. It provokes a response and therefore a debate. Equally this could just end up being a thread of best reads of the year and rehashing that. Duplication is no great gain.

When are the goodreads one? I have it in my head as December? So is the list above the concurrent one with this set of Hugo nominations?

Also I note your post and an edit of mine crossed in the ether. I was just updating on my thinking, but doesnt change your subsequent post.

[QuickTidal]

Cyphon, on 08 April 2020 - 07:38 PM, said:

When are the goodreads one? I have it in my head as December? So is the list above the concurrent one with this set of Hugo nominations?

I think it's end of year each year, yeah. The Hugo contention is probably similar barring a few standouts that might have dropped later in 2019.

[Werthead]

I think the eligibility period has to be different for Goodreads, as FIRE & BLOOD came out in November 2018 (so shouldn't be eligible in a 2019-only list).

The Hugos run for an entire calendar year, so the Hugo Awards 2020 are actually for works released between 1 January and 31 December 2019. There is some flexibility for split-market books (so if a book came out in the State in 2018 and the UK in 2019, it might still be eligible for the 2020 awards, but I believe it can only be shortlisted once) but that's about it.

[Chance]

Usually mostly look at novel section and its always struck me as more of a popularity contest in a rather limited forum than any form of quality.

Really good books win but so do rather mediocre ones and even pretty poor ones.

This post has been edited by Chance: 09 April 2020 - 10:44 AM

[Maark Abbott]

Werthead, on 08 April 2020 - 12:11 PM, said:

There's always been a touch of cliqueness about the Hugos. Seanan Mcguire - inoffensively mediocre, readable but forgettable - being nominated for every book and/or series she puts out regardless of quality has always been a bit strange, and John Scalzi and Neil Gaiman (winning for under-par work whilst his really good stuff never got close to winning) before that.

Apart from the Best Fan Writer category, obviously, where the award nominators have proven themselves to be of impeccable taste and undoubted moral character.

Maark Abbott, on 08 April 2020 - 11:56 AM, said:

I am super out of touch with modern releases, I don't recognise any of those names.

Even Kameron Hurley, one of the finest SFF writers of the 2010? Not sure if THE LIGHT BRIGADE is her best novel, but it's certainly her most approachable.

Until this thread I'd never heard of her...

[Cyphon]

https://www.tor.com/...-max-gladstone/

Nebula Award winners. Not heard of the winner of best novel before... but blurb reads very on the nose for current times.

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 31 May 2020 - 04:31 PM

[Aptorian]

There's some interesting, cheap books in those lists. Bought:

The ten thousand doors of January
The haunting of Tram Car 015
And the short story connected to Tram Car called A dead djinn in Cairo.
Didn't buy Marque of Cain but the first book in the series Fire with Fire (Caine Riordan Book 1), is free on Amazon
Carpe Glitter by an author called... Cat Rambo?!?

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 31 May 2020 - 04:07 PM

[Morgoth]

I enjoyed The ten thousand doors of January. It was pretty neat, if not amazing. I got a little annoyed at just how helpless the protagonist acted at times when she was simultaneously described as strong willed and intelligent, and though I understand it was meant to show the power her situation had over her, I felt it to be jarring all the same.