Malazan Empire: Possible inconsistencies found in GotM *spoilers* - Malazan Empire

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Possible inconsistencies found in GotM *spoilers*

#1 User is offline   Palmdiggity 

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 05:11 AM

Has anyone noted the inconsistencies in GotM compared to the rest of the series? I'm reading the series a second time and there's a lot that's confusing. At the very beginning of the prologue it states that it's the 96th year of the Malazan Empire. But given that Kellanved founded the empire and Dujek was there at the very beginning and wasn't particularly young then, how is he still alive? I'm pretty sure Whiskeyjack is there too. They appear in Esslemont's prequel series. Additionally, if the empire is that old, given that Dancer has no magical abilities, how did he live so long as well?

Another inconsistency is it says in a book that Dessembrae is there when the Crippled God falls (120,000 or so years before book one) but Dassem Ultor is Dessembrae and he's not that old?

A third one which stands out for me is K'rul states in Kruppe's dream that Dragnipur was forged before his time. Draconus forged the sword though and surely he and K'rul are contemporaries as they're both Elder Gods?

These are three that have stood out to me and I haven't finished GotM for the second time yet. Are these actual inconsistencies or have I missed something? I'm keen to hear from everyone on these.
Cheers.
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#2 User is offline   Palmdiggity 

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 05:16 AM

P.S. When I say that it says in a book Dessembrae was there when the Crippled God fell, it's in a book that Kruppe is reading in Mammot's study, just before Baruk gives Mammot a research task and summons Kruppe.
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#3 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 05:29 AM

There are inconsistencies, many of which aren't to be discussed here in the GOTM forum because of spoilers. But they're what we call GOTMisms.

Like Ammanas and Cotillion's behavior and plot in GOTM, Orfantals gender, Fiddler's age, the Tlan Imass' power levels, etc.

They're an artifact of GOTM being written something like a decade before the rest of the books.

However, most of the ones you mention aren't actually inconsistencies. The age of the empire and it's rulers and generals, is part propaganda and part, as mentioned in GOTM or later books a result of these people being connected to the deadhouse and using Alchemy and sorcery to prolong their life.

Dassem was present during a chaining ( there's been multiple) not the fall.

Maybe you could cite the exact quote from K'rul but it sounds like it's part poetic license and part a matter of perspective, of forms and roles.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 04 January 2020 - 05:33 AM

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#4 User is offline   Palmdiggity 

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 02:47 PM

That's fair enough. It makes sense.
I'll hunt for the exact quote from K'rul. It's in Kruppe's first dream after the Silverfox shenanigans when he and K'rul are sitting by the fire.
Thanks for the info though!
*sorry I put it in the wrong forum 😬*
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#5 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 02:57 PM

If you're rereading come join the discussion in the 2020 reread thread in the general books section.
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#6 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 08:54 PM

View PostPalmdiggity, on 04 January 2020 - 02:47 PM, said:

That's fair enough. It makes sense.
I'll hunt for the exact quote from K'rul. It's in Kruppe's first dream after the Silverfox shenanigans when he and K'rul are sitting by the fire.
Thanks for the info though!
*sorry I put it in the wrong forum 😬*


Yeah I recently read this. There's a reason we say 'the timeline is not important..'

Look at it this way - the series is called 'The book of the fallen'. It is written like a history, told through the different eyes of those who were there, or, those who actually wrote the histories down after the events. As an archaeologist, we are told to treat histories as artifacts - very much the product of their writers experience and bias; not as accurate representations of events.

SE is an archaeologist, and likely views written history the same way. It sometimes contradicts itself, overlaps with other histories etc. The book Kruppe is reading is a history, but it may not be an accurate one. Its maybe just another gotmism but I get over any anachronistic events with the same reasoning - it's a written history, not necessarily an accurate one!
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#7 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 04 January 2020 - 09:00 PM

And of course sometimes an author makes mistakes. It's in inevitable considering the density of the work.
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#8 User is offline   Zerv 

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Posted 07 January 2020 - 12:00 AM

Can't seem to find the source right now, but I think SE might have actually indicated at some point (one of the tor reread QAs, perhaps?) that the text about the Chaining that Kruppe reads in GotM is meant to be an unreliable source which conflates the numerous Chainings and interprets them as a single event (which is implied by said text to have occurred shortly after the Fall of the Crippled God, so the explanation that the text is simply talking about the recent Chaining doesn't quite work). As mentioned above, there have in fact been many Chainings and Dassem was indeed present at a relatively recent one, hence the apparent inconsistency. I might be misremembering, but it seems to be a reasonable explanation in any case.


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#9 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 03:13 PM

Given the CG fell in pieces, there were multiple Chainings,

My take on the list of people present at the chaining was a list of people present at at least one, but their names appearance doesn't mean they were there for all of them. Remember, the pieces varied greatly in power
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#10 User is online   Gorefest 

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 05:13 PM

Are these chainings for the individual pieces, then? I sort of always assumed the Chainings were linked to the heart/soul, but that there had to be repeated Chainings over time because the bonds might be weakening. Hrm.
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#11 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 05:33 PM

I think there's a main chunk that needed multiple chainings and there's smaller chunks that we hear about in Stonewielder.
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#12 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 10 January 2020 - 06:44 PM

My take was that there were multiple chainings for multiple chunks, but sometimes a chunk would get loose and require another chaining, ie: The Lady in SW.
And BaB showed us that not every chunk immediately runs around being all evil. Actually, same goes for the Great Ravens.
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#13 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 18 January 2020 - 07:00 PM

I found the page where Kruppe is reading about the chaining on p 386 and it does indeed appear to be a case of the unreliable narrator or in this case the unreliable historian.


It's written like it took place ages ago when, if we're to trust Esslemont's latest books, it probably happened around a decade or two ago relative to GOTMs events
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#14 User is offline   Macros 

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 07:59 AM

I'm nearly sure there's a passage somewhere in the series where it's mentioned that someone was present at the 'last' chaining, as in there were several
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#15 User is offline   champ 

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 11:01 AM

View PostMacros, on 21 January 2020 - 07:59 AM, said:

I'm nearly sure there's a passage somewhere in the series where it's mentioned that someone was present at the 'last' chaining, as in there were several


There is the whole situation with Dassem's daughter and his split with Hood around the chainings.

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'Yet my heart breaks for a naked hen.'
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