[MuskyTusk]

*Possible spoilers if you haven't finished Memories of Ice yet*Hello everyone, new to the forum and the Malazan series. I just finished Memories of Ice and started House of Chains. I just have to say that I started reading fantasy as a kid (now 27) with series like The Dark is Rising and Redwall. When the Game of Thrones TV show came out I started reading the first couple books then moved on to The Wheel of Time. I love all those series, but the Malazan Book of the Fallen just makes everything else seem elementary right now. Easily the best fantasy series I've ever read, hands down. I can't wrap my head around how Erickson created such a story.

Anyway, I have a couple questions about the T'lan Imass and the Jaghut -- I must have missed a few details. No spoilers of course please, I'd rather just keep reading to learn more if I didn't miss anything yet.
So as I understand it, the T'lan Imass dedicated their existence to the genocide of the Jaghut race. They performed the Ritual of Tellann to make themselves immortal -- never to pass through Hood's Gates as long as the ritual sustained -- to ensure the that they would not die out before the Jaghut and complete their destruction.
My questions are:
1. Why did the T'lan Imass dedicate themselves to the genocide of the Jaghut? Just the fact that the Jaghut give rise to Tyrants doesn't seem enough of a reason, unless the T'lan Imass are simply militant by nature I guess.
2. Why does the Jaghut race give rise to Tyrants? As I understand it the Jaghut are extremely solitary people, living alone like hermits. It doesn't make sense to me that a few of the Jaghut would rebel so furiously against the Jaghut way of solitude that they would become Tyrants. Unless the Jaghut race somehow became "tainted" by Chaos. Maybe that's why the Pannion Seer was so thoroughly controlled by something -- I'm guessing it was the Crippled God influencing him. That would explain the T'lan Imass dedication to destroying the Jaghut -- they're a race "tainted" by Chaos and the Crippled God, as he is somehow related to Chaos.

Again if I'm thinking too far ahead and the answers are spoilers just let me know.
Thanks in advance.

[Aptorian]

A lot of what you're wondering about is indeed Read and Find Out stuff.

But some pointers:

The Imass were threatened by the Jaghuts power in many ways. In terms of dominance, in terms of sheer magical power and, perhaps most significantly, in terms of the environmental impact of the Jaghuts ice sorcery. You've got to remember this Imass Jaghutwar is actually a sort of allegory for human ancestors struggles with ice ages and climate change.

The Imass needed the ability to outlast ice ages and immortal Jaghuts hiding for centuries and millennia.

As for Jaghuts there's a reason why they're solitary. They don't get a long we'll with one another.


Jaghuts don't necessarily give rise to tyrants any more than humans do. Some people just suck. Though I think there are some discussion on that in later books.

Tyrants are most likely the equivalent of human ascendants, just that much more powerful and scary and as such you don't want to take chances. Just like humans have hunted predators and fought neanderthals to extinction, so the Imass see a need to destroy the Jaghut.

The Imass and Jaghut greatly predate the Crippled God. Remember the dates. The Crippled God "only" fell to earth 130,000 years ago.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 26 April 2019 - 07:18 AM

[Gorefest]

Yeah, Apt pretty much captured it.

To add my 2p, the Jaghut Tyrants portrayed themselves to the Imass as gods and when the Imass found out about the deceipt it will basically have rocked their whole belief system to the core. That sort of stuff can make people quite enraged. Furthermore, not all Imass joined in with the ritual, but obviously the ones who didn't will be long dead and gone and we don't see their perspective anymore. Instead, we are left with the fanatic remainder who, in losing their humanity Imassity in their quest for revenge, will have only hardened and radicalised further over the millennia. So from hunting down Jaghut Tyrants it became hunting down any Jaghut who might become a Tyrant, then to any Tyrant regardless of race (e.g. D'ivers, Soletaken, or even human tyrants).


Why some Jaghut became Tyrants is probably for the same reason why some humans or other races do. As Apt said, some 'people' just suck. Don't think it specifically relates to chaos, but the Imass-Jaghut wars are definitely not related to the Crippled god because he only arrived on the scene relatively recently compared to this feud.

[Abyss]

 MuskyTusk, on 26 April 2019 - 06:46 AM, said:

1. Why did the T'lan Imass dedicate themselves to the genocide of the Jaghut? Just the fact that the Jaghut give rise to Tyrants doesn't seem enough of a reason, unless the T'lan Imass are simply militant by nature I guess.

Some of this is RAFO, but the key things you can draw as of the end of MoI...

Jaghut Tyrants set themselves up as gods and dominated the living Imass utterly. The revelation that their 'gods' were just asshats from a difference race was too much to allow for less than complete vengeance. Also, the Imass would have had to fight their own people to get at the Tyrants, which wouldn't make anyone happy.

It seems that the Tyrant dominating Imass thing happened a LOT.

By the time the Ritual was invoked, the Jaghut has sent an Ice Age against the Imass so they basically went undead, as a race, giving up any hope of an afterlife or even peaceful death (as far as they knew) rather than just die out. Once you're going that far, anything less than ful blown jihad just doesn't measure up.

Quote

2. Why does the Jaghut race give rise to Tyrants? As I understand it the Jaghut are extremely solitary people, living alone like hermits. It doesn't make sense to me that a few of the Jaghut would rebel so furiously against the Jaghut way of solitude that they would become Tyrants. Unless the Jaghut race somehow became "tainted" by Chaos. Maybe that's why the Pannion Seer was so thoroughly controlled by something -- I'm guessing it was the Crippled God influencing him. That would explain the T'lan Imass dedication to destroying the Jaghut -- they're a race "tainted" by Chaos and the Crippled God, as he is somehow related to Chaos.

Racial tendency. We haven't seen a whole lot of Jaghut at the end of MoI, but the suggestions are that they generally are arrogant, powerful as fuck, and like to control their space. For some that leads to a preference to be solitary or closely familial, but for others that leads to a desire to dominate.

The Chaos link to the Seer arises because the Crippled God was manipulating him. It doesn't seem to be a racial thing... we could speculate that since the Jaghut elder ice warren is 'close' to death, and death is 'close' to chaos, there's probably more opportunity for contamination.


You have a lot of awesome reading ahead, enjoy!

[MuskyTusk]

Wow thank you very much, all of you. That answered pretty much everything without giving any spoilers. I forgot that Omtose Phellack was powerful enough to start a kind of ice age, and that the Tyrants were similar to Ascendants, being god-like. I also completely forgot that the T'lan Imass gods were Jaghut, that explains their hatred of them. Also forgot how old the T'lan Imass and Jaghut are, I'm a little confused with the timeline. I'll get back to House of Chains now.

I just have one question about the flesh-and-blood Bonecasters, it's probably 'read and find out' tho.
I know Silverfox is a living Bonecaster, but isn't there one other that appears in Coral at the end, with the Seer, Quick Ben and Paran? I think her name is Kilava, she shapeshifts into a black panther.
How is she a flesh and blood Bonecaster? Or am I mistaken and she's an immortal T'lan Imass?

[worry]

Kilava is a mystery for another day!

[Gorefest]

Kilava is one of the Imass who did not take the vow. She is Tool's sister. The reason for her longevity I'm afraid is RAFO, but she is not T'lan.

[MuskyTusk]

 Gorefest, on 26 April 2019 - 09:11 PM, said:

Kilava is one of the Imass who did not take the vow. She is Tool's sister. The reason for her longevity I'm afraid is RAFO, but she is not T'lan.

 worry, on 26 April 2019 - 09:09 PM, said:

Kilava is a mystery for another day!

Oh I love it, I'll keep reading

[D'rek]

Ehh, her longevity is not necessarily all that mysterious. We saw in Deadhouse Gates a bunch of Soletaken/D'ivers who were millenia or more old, so it stands to reason that a living Imass who became Soletaken (as all Bonecasters seem to be, so far) would also have an unnaturally long lifespan (or perhaps no lifespan at all) just like those other Soletaken were. In short, we can simply conclude that Kilava must have become an Imass Ascendant and hence had no need of the Ritual of Tellan to live this long.

Though why she didn't join the Ritual and what her other motivations or relationship with the T'lan Imass are at this point are indeed still mysterious.

[Gorefest]

 D, on 27 April 2019 - 05:29 AM, said:

Ehh, her longevity is not necessarily all that mysterious. We saw in Deadhouse Gates a bunch of Soletaken/D'ivers who were millenia or more old, so it stands to reason that a living Imass who became Soletaken (as all Bonecasters seem to be, so far) would also have an unnaturally long lifespan (or perhaps no lifespan at all) just like those other Soletaken were. In short, we can simply conclude that Kilava must have become an Imass Ascendant and hence had no need of the Ritual of Tellan to live this long.

Though why she didn't join the Ritual and what her other motivations or relationship with the T'lan Imass are at this point are indeed still mysterious.

Spoiler

The actual reason for her longevity is explained in HoC

[neo era]

1. because of the nature of tyrants. they basically eliminate free will and completely dominate a mind; not just imass either, but any life form in the vicinity that cannot resist. I'm not sure of the range but my best guess is several miles, depending on how powerful the tyrant is.
2. there is no known relation to chaos. I think our best guess as to why they become tyrants is because they simply wish to, since they have colossal power.

Spoiler

your best bet as to the insight of a tyrant is to read fall of light, where a couple of thel akai stumble upon raest.

[D'rek]

 Gorefest, on 27 April 2019 - 08:07 AM, said:

 D, on 27 April 2019 - 05:29 AM, said:

Ehh, her longevity is not necessarily all that mysterious. We saw in Deadhouse Gates a bunch of Soletaken/D'ivers who were millenia or more old, so it stands to reason that a living Imass who became Soletaken (as all Bonecasters seem to be, so far) would also have an unnaturally long lifespan (or perhaps no lifespan at all) just like those other Soletaken were. In short, we can simply conclude that Kilava must have become an Imass Ascendant and hence had no need of the Ritual of Tellan to live this long.

Though why she didn't join the Ritual and what her other motivations or relationship with the T'lan Imass are at this point are indeed still mysterious.

Spoiler

The actual reason for her longevity is explained in HoC

Spoiler

Yes, but the point is that as of MoI you can reasonably believe the above. It's a sensical explanation, and if no later book gave any extra info beyond that it would still make perfect sense and be the accepted explanation.

[Keysi]

 Gorefest, on 26 April 2019 - 11:36 AM, said:

Yeah, Apt pretty much captured it.

To add my 2p, the Jaghut Tyrants portrayed themselves to the Imass as gods and when the Imass found out about the *deceipt* it will basically have rocked their whole belief system to the core. That sort of stuff can make people quite enraged. Furthermore, not all Imass joined in with the ritual, but obviously the ones who didn't will be long dead and gone and we don't see their perspective anymore. Instead, we are left with the fanatic remainder who, in losing their humanity Imassity in their quest for revenge, will have only hardened and radicalised further over the millennia. So from hunting down Jaghut Tyrants it became hunting down any Jaghut who might become a Tyrant, then to any Tyrant regardless of race (e.g. D'ivers, Soletaken, or even human tyrants).


Why some Jaghut became Tyrants is probably for the same reason why some humans or other races do. As Apt said, some 'people' just suck. Don't think it specifically relates to chaos, but the Imass-Jaghut wars are definitely not related to the Crippled god because he only arrived on the scene relatively recently compared to this feud.

Was it really a deceit tho?
Jaghut, especially Tyrants, seems to have immense magical power, enough to rival any ascendent, and an indefinite, as far as we know, lifespan, unless they meet enough violence.

Plus they get worshippers. It seems in this series having some worshippers is all ke needs to be considered a god.

Just arguing semantics now .

[Kanese S's]

 MuskyTusk, on 26 April 2019 - 06:46 AM, said:

*Possible spoilers if you haven't finished Memories of Ice yet*Hello everyone, new to the forum and the Malazan series. I just finished Memories of Ice and started House of Chains. I just have to say that I started reading fantasy as a kid (now 27) with series like The Dark is Rising and Redwall. When the Game of Thrones TV show came out I started reading the first couple books then moved on to The Wheel of Time. I love all those series, but the Malazan Book of the Fallen just makes everything else seem elementary right now. Easily the best fantasy series I've ever read, hands down. I can't wrap my head around how Erickson created such a story.

Anyway, I have a couple questions about the T'lan Imass and the Jaghut -- I must have missed a few details. No spoilers of course please, I'd rather just keep reading to learn more if I didn't miss anything yet.
So as I understand it, the T'lan Imass dedicated their existence to the genocide of the Jaghut race. They performed the Ritual of Tellann to make themselves immortal -- never to pass through Hood's Gates as long as the ritual sustained -- to ensure the that they would not die out before the Jaghut and complete their destruction.
My questions are:
1. Why did the T'lan Imass dedicate themselves to the genocide of the Jaghut? Just the fact that the Jaghut give rise to Tyrants doesn't seem enough of a reason, unless the T'lan Imass are simply militant by nature I guess.
2. Why does the Jaghut race give rise to Tyrants? As I understand it the Jaghut are extremely solitary people, living alone like hermits. It doesn't make sense to me that a few of the Jaghut would rebel so furiously against the Jaghut way of solitude that they would become Tyrants. Unless the Jaghut race somehow became "tainted" by Chaos. Maybe that's why the Pannion Seer was so thoroughly controlled by something -- I'm guessing it was the Crippled God influencing him. That would explain the T'lan Imass dedication to destroying the Jaghut -- they're a race "tainted" by Chaos and the Crippled God, as he is somehow related to Chaos.

Again if I'm thinking too far ahead and the answers are spoilers just let me know.
Thanks in advance.

1. We have to keep in mind how long ago this was. The Jaghut Tyrants enslaved the Imass pretty much as soon as the latter were capable of forming societies. And then ruled them as gods for generations. Imagine how angry you'd be if you discovered that your entire religion and world view was a lie set up to keep you enslaved to some powerful jackass. Also at the point they freed themselves, the Imass hadn't encountered any tyrant that wasn't Jaghut, which somewhat explains the genocidal nature of their retribution. Kill all the Jaghut, no more tyrants, right? At least, if you're unaware that tyranny isn't necessarily related to species. As for the ritual, when the Jaghut fled, they erected barriers of ice in their wake to stop their Imass pursuers. Additionally, Jaghut are much, much longer lived than Imass, practically immortal, so thought to simply wait for the Imass' rage to pass, perhaps even for their people to pass. The ritual overcame both of these issues. At terrible cost, of course. But then, the Imass thought that what they were doing meant that no one would ever be enslaved or dominated again. Obviously they were wrong, but they didn't know that at the time.


2. The Jaghut are extremely solitary partly due to wanting to avoid becoming tyrants. They're not evil, but they are incredibly powerful compared to some of the other sapient beings in the series. Certainly way more powerful than the Imass were at the time. It was likely tempting to rationalize enslaving Imass and view it the same way one might view having dogs pull a sled for humans, or having oxen pull a wagon or a plow. The Jaghut-Imass conflict far predates the Crippled God's arrival, which was a desperate measure against a human tyrant.

[Abyss]

 Keysi, on 05 March 2020 - 08:08 PM, said:

...

Was it really a deceit tho?
Jaghut, especially Tyrants, seems to have immense magical power, enough to rival any ascendent, and an indefinite, as far as we know, lifespan, unless they meet enough violence.

Plus they get worshippers. It seems in this series having some worshippers is all ke needs to be considered a god.

Just arguing semantics now .

It was deceit because they were NOT the Imass' gods, and they said they were. They 'stole' the worshippers they had from other gods.
And as they were not truly gods or Imass gods, any Imass who thought they would have a happy contented afterlife as a result of worshipping a Jaghut was misled.

There is no mention of Jaghut ascending to true godhood over the Imass, just the subversion of it. Likely in every instance, sooner or later, the Imass figured it out and got angry.

[Keysi]

Ok I can get behind that they faked being the Imass' specific gods, but that they weren't actual gods is, I think, more opaque. What an Ascendant is isn't particularly well defined, it just seems to be any being who attains immense power, and I can think of at least 2 occasions where an Ascendant turns out to have worshippers, so therefore becomes their god.

[Kanese S's]

 Keysi, on 25 March 2020 - 05:57 PM, said:

Ok I can get behind that they faked being the Imass' specific gods, but that they weren't actual gods is, I think, more opaque. What an Ascendant is isn't particularly well defined, it just seems to be any being who attains immense power, and I can think of at least 2 occasions where an Ascendant turns out to have worshippers, so therefore becomes their god.

It's complicated. A Jaghut, even a Tyrant, isn't necessarily an ascendant, even if they wield incredible political power. They had (duped) worshipers, but weren't actually ascendants (at least not all of them), and the worship was not real in the sense that the Imass had gods, but those gods weren't actually Jaghut.