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Dujek/Tyrant question

#1 User is offline   Raz4starr 

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 07:04 AM

Hello everyone. So, I am new to this forum and to the series. I am currently in the last 150 pages or so and this book, although it comes with some obvious flaws, is very good and I think prepares you for what is to follow (or at least what I expect to follow). It is confusing and not confusing at the same time. I find that if you pay attention you will have little problem understanding what is going on (unless Erikson doesn't want you to of course). Most of the plotlines are either resolved, left for later books or provide the reader with enough information to either figure out things for himself or construct a plausible interpretation.

That said, there is a part close to where I am right now that does not make a lot of sense. How does Dujek know about the Tyrant? As far as I know, only Lorn, Tool, Tayschrenn, Bellurdan, Tattersail (who finds out shortly before her confrontation with Bellurdan) and of course Laseen know about the Tyrant (at least in the Empire). None of them was likely to inform Dujek of Lorn's plan. So how does Dujek know and inform Whiskeyjack in their conversation through the K'Chain Che'Malle artifact? If this is answered later, please just say so and don't give any spoilers. Perhaps I am getting impatient, but I expected this to be resolved prior to the conversation scene or immediately after as is usually the pattern after such a big revelation. Instead, it seems it is kind of just brushed off. Have I missed something?

By the way, the Coll/Simtal thing, does it go anywhere? Because right now it seems like a completely disconnected sideplot. Has it some significance to the overarching plot or it's just a subplot to build up the Darujhistan characters? Because it really seems strangely disconnected.
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#2 User is offline   Raz4starr 

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 09:47 AM

Oh, and another thing. How does Lorn know about the Coin Bearer? When she gets out of the barrow, she just goes 'now i can deal with the Coin Bearer as well'. Where did this come from?
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#3 User is offline   Raz4starr 

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 10:56 AM

Ok, this is getting extremely complicated without apparent explanations. How the hell did Paran find out about the finnest? I thought only Lorn and Tool knew about that. Suddenly, every character seems to know everything. So, we should at least know that the characters have been in contact with each other.
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#4 User is offline   Not Noto 

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 12:19 PM

You think you have little problem understanding what happens in GotM if you pay attention your first read of MBotF..
Well, you know nothing yet hehe. Pieces will fall in place and there will be some explanation in later books but I'm pretty certain that you will still be a little bit confused when you are done. Keep on reading and you'll be surprised and most likely want to read the whole thing again if you enjoyed the book so far..
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#5 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 04:26 PM

I'd like to help provide you with an answer but it's been ages since I read GotM so i'm not sure which specific sections you are referring to. Can you quote some specific bits perhaps that lead you to these observations?
She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
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#6 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 04:59 PM

View PostRaz4starr, on 31 January 2019 - 10:56 AM, said:

Ok, this is getting extremely complicated without apparent explanations. How the hell did Paran find out about the finnest? I thought only Lorn and Tool knew about that. Suddenly, every character seems to know everything. So, we should at least know that the characters have been in contact with each other.


I think I can answer this one, although I may have some of the details wrong. I'll try and keep it spoiler free. If I recall correctly, Paran learned about the Finnest from Tool. Paran discovers a weird wooden tree stump structure in the garden behind the Simtal (?) estate while he is looking for Sorry. Then, a bit later on, Paran somehow (can't remember the details) gets pulled into a different realm. There, he encounters Tool who is fighting what looks like the Jaghut tyrant. Then a house rises from the ground, which Tool refers to as an 'Azath'. and he explains to Paran that this Azath was called into existence to contain a thing called the Finnest (which we learned earlier from a conversation between Tool and Lorn that it is a receptacle for the Jaghut tyrant's power; it manifests itself in this reality as the thing that Tool was fighting). Tool tells Paran to defend the Azath against this Finnest. Paran manages to do so by calling on his Hound link, which defies the Finnest's attempt to overtake and possess him. This delays the Finnest long enough for the Azath house to capture it.
She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
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#7 User is offline   Raz4starr 

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 06:33 PM

Guys thanks for your replies. Gorefest, all the things you are referencing haven't happened yet. Specifically, for my first question, I am referring to the scene where Whiskeyjack meets Paran in the room where the injured Coll lies, and then Whiskeyjack contacts Dujek through an artifact all the commanders had during the time of the previous Emperor. In regards with my second question, when Lorn exits the Barrow with Tool and then starts towards Darujhistan, she thinks that now is the time to settle the scores with the Coin Bearer as well. These happen both in Chapter 19. The last happens in Chapter 20, where Quick Ben comes to the room where the Bridgeburners are staying after Lorn leaves and he says that Paran told them that Lorn would drop something off and asked if she already did. The only thing Lorn i tends to drop off is the Finnest from what I gather. But all of this happens before the Fete.
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#8 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 07:06 PM

Oh bother, I thought you said you were near the end. Really sorry about that, I should have spoilered it. I hoped you stopped reading when it became apparent I was ahead of your reading area....

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 31 January 2019 - 07:08 PM

She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
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#9 User is offline   Raz4starr 

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 09:49 PM

No don't worry it's okay. Those spoilers were mild at worst, nothing significant. I've been spoiled a lot worse due to my habit of reading the extracts from the later books. For example, I've already read the prologue of DG. Thanks for trying to help.
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#10 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 02:52 AM

Lorn and Dujek are both highly ranked Malazan Empire officers. They have access to all kinds of info, you just don't see them access it.
Paran... RAFO.
Coll Simtal.... RAFO.
CHASE: Paw Patrol is ready for action Mr Pust sir!
PUST: *pauses ranting* What does that mean?
ZUMA: It means let's dive in, dude!
PUST: What? What is a dude? WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?????
-The Malazan Book of the Paw Patrol
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#11 User is offline   Raz4starr 

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 05:23 AM

I figured as much, and in most cases that makes perfect sense. But these particular pieces of information would be very hard to come by, since it should be to all the knowledgeable parties' interest to keep them secret. This is the kind of information that when a character that you haven't seen discover it, know it, there should be an explanation at some point.
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#12 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 03:30 PM

View PostRaz4starr, on 01 February 2019 - 05:23 AM, said:

I figured as much, and in most cases that makes perfect sense. But these particular pieces of information would be very hard to come by, since it should be to all the knowledgeable parties' interest to keep them secret. This is the kind of information that when a character that you haven't seen discover it, know it, there should be an explanation at some point.


Lorn went looking for the Tyrant. She had Tool with her as escort. Ergo, either Tool, an Imass serving the Empire, told her it was there, or Lorn, the Empress' Adjunct, effectively her foremost agent, had access to other information from an Empire with a pile of of mages on call.


Dujek was commander of a major army and knew Lorn was in play. He knew what the plan was because he was in on it or his own sources, including spies, mages, etc, told him.


Don't look for this series to hand you everything on a narrative platter... it won't happen more often than not. The authors trust you to figure it out, or understand that it wasn't what you needed to see to appreciate what is happening 'on screen'.
CHASE: Paw Patrol is ready for action Mr Pust sir!
PUST: *pauses ranting* What does that mean?
ZUMA: It means let's dive in, dude!
PUST: What? What is a dude? WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?????
-The Malazan Book of the Paw Patrol
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#13 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 05:24 PM

View PostRaz4starr, on 01 February 2019 - 05:23 AM, said:

I figured as much, and in most cases that makes perfect sense. But these particular pieces of information would be very hard to come by, since it should be to all the knowledgeable parties' interest to keep them secret. This is the kind of information that when a character that you haven't seen discover it, know it, there should be an explanation at some point.



If I were you, I would keep noting questions like this when they occur to you, and just keep reading.

There are some valid points and questions, but they are easier to discuss in the context of the entire series. And with specific questions it is tough to even tell you that because even saying you will learn more can in a way be hinting at things.

So generally we can only really give a satisfactory answer if you missed or misunderstood something already in the text you've read to date.
Tatts early in SH game: Hmm, so if I'm liberal I should have voted Nein to make sure I'm president? I'm not that selfish

Tatts later in SAME game: I'm going to be a corrupt official. I have turned from my liberal ways, and now will vote against the pesky liberals. Viva la Fascism.
When Venge's turn comes, he will get a yes from Mess, Dolmen, Nevyn and Venge but a no from the 3 fascists and me. **** with my Government, and i'll **** with yours
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#14 User is offline   Raz4starr 

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 06:10 PM

@Nevyn I've done that in a lot of other cases, it's just that from my point of view these questions do not leave much room for satisfying explanations down the line. Of course I am going to keep reading, the world building, the plot, even the characters are extremely interesting and intriguing.

@Abyss I understand completely. But this kind of explanation does not make a lot of sense, that's what I'm saying. We have no indication and no inclination to believe that Lorn's plan was common knowledge for example. I'm not looking for exposition dumps, not at all, I want sufficient clues to figure things out myself. Dujek suddenly saying to Whiskeyjack 'You know, Lorn's in the Barrow' doesn't come from seemingly anywhere. And yes, spies could have found out, but we should have at least some slight indication.
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#15 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 06:28 PM

View PostRaz4starr, on 01 February 2019 - 06:10 PM, said:

...we should have at least some slight indication.


Why?
CHASE: Paw Patrol is ready for action Mr Pust sir!
PUST: *pauses ranting* What does that mean?
ZUMA: It means let's dive in, dude!
PUST: What? What is a dude? WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?????
-The Malazan Book of the Paw Patrol
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#16 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 07:32 PM

View PostRaz4starr, on 01 February 2019 - 06:10 PM, said:

@Nevyn I've done that in a lot of other cases, it's just that from my point of view these questions do not leave much room for satisfying explanations down the line. Of course I am going to keep reading, the world building, the plot, even the characters are extremely interesting and intriguing.

@Abyss I understand completely. But this kind of explanation does not make a lot of sense, that's what I'm saying. We have no indication and no inclination to believe that Lorn's plan was common knowledge for example. I'm not looking for exposition dumps, not at all, I want sufficient clues to figure things out myself. Dujek suddenly saying to Whiskeyjack 'You know, Lorn's in the Barrow' doesn't come from seemingly anywhere. And yes, spies could have found out, but we should have at least some slight indication.





This series will always be short on "satisfying explanations".

What you gain is greater overall understanding and occasionally new revelations that put old information in a different context.

But the point remains, they become hard things to proper discuss with people who have not read further.
Tatts early in SH game: Hmm, so if I'm liberal I should have voted Nein to make sure I'm president? I'm not that selfish

Tatts later in SAME game: I'm going to be a corrupt official. I have turned from my liberal ways, and now will vote against the pesky liberals. Viva la Fascism.
When Venge's turn comes, he will get a yes from Mess, Dolmen, Nevyn and Venge but a no from the 3 fascists and me. **** with my Government, and i'll **** with yours
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#17 User is offline   Raz4starr 

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 07:57 PM

@Abyss Because it is the first time in this book that something seems to come completely out of the blue.

I concede however that the fact that I have not read much further severely impedes the discussion. I was looking for a possible spoiler free explanation or something that I missed. But it seems my questions may be answered later, although I'm really curious to see how. I have also heard of some consistency issues between this book and the later entries in the series. Could these be such cases?
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#18 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 02:24 AM

Put it this way - not every character in the Malazan universe who is powerful and/or well-informed will advertise themselves as such.

Like, imagine you've got this character, "Bob", and he's a decently-powerful Ascendant, or high mage, or just super-duper smart, or the rightful heir to an ancient clan, or half-demon, or his dog is a demon, or he's an exiled Tanno Spiritwalker, or his dog is an exiled Tanno Spiritwalker, or whatever. Maybe he uses his powers/skills/knowledge/etc to set himself up in a big, public role like being God-Emperor of Genostel. Well then of course characters are going to be aware of Bob's reputation, you'll get various mentions by characters or in-story books about the terrifying God-Emperor Bob, etc.

But instead, maybe Bob has a good reason to lie low. He wants to be involved in whatever big convergence of events is coming up, but if he's public about it maybe some other Ascendants that hate him will smack him down. Or he's a wanted man in the Malazan Empire. Or he has some Jaghut blood and if the T'lan Imass realize it they'll hunt him down. Etc. So instead of making himself God-Emperor of Genostel, Bob hides himself as an ordinary peasant who enlists in the army that happens to be going towards the convergence. Or he gets hired as a merchant's guard heading there. Or something like that.

For that matter, maybe Bob the Badass doesn't want to head towards the convergence at all - he just wants to retire. So he hides his history and powers and settles down on a deserted island eating coconuts all day.

Point is, the world of Malazan has lots of Ascendants, lots of centuries-old high mages, lots of minor deities, lots of legendary figures from a whole bunch of species, and much more. Even the relatively-new Malazan Empire is a bit over a hundred years old and has dozens of famous figures from it's early days - the "Old Guard" - and at least a dozen of them are still alive through various means (hey, the universe has magic healing, who says you can't just pay a Denul mage to fix you up every 10 years and effectively stop aging?).

Sometimes in these books, you're going to be told up-front about this. E.g. in the first few chapters of GotM we got to see the massacre of Itko Kan begun from Shadowthrone and Cotillion's perspective, and we saw Cotillion possessing Sorry, so we knew all along that she was possessed... but if we hadn't, she'd just be a weird soldier for most of the book until it was revealed.

Other times in the book it's not going to be revealed for quite a while. In this case, it turns out Dujek isn't just a blindly-following-orders average military commander, but instead a nigh-legendary military commander and "Old Guard" who is quite well informed and playing his own game behind Laseen, Tayschrenn, and Lorn's back. The conversation with Whiskeyjack via K'Chain Che'malle sceptre *is* the indicator of this - it's meant to be a sudden reveal that not only is Whiskeyjack and his squad, and Dujek, not just blindly walking into a suicide mission, not only are they better-informed, but they even have access to secret tools they've kept hidden from Laseen, and they potentially even have their own agenda. What you thought was lining up to be a simple "Malazans use the Tyrant versus Rake" finale sudden became a lot more complicated, didn't it? And who knows what other tools Whiskeyjack and his squad might have in waiting, or for that matter what other twists might come up before the swords are unsheathed.

And who knows, there might be characters you come across in the books that are hiding something just like Dujek, and you'll never know it because none of the PoV characters ever sense anything weird about them, either. Or characters you come across that seem normal except for just one little thing one time, and you don't know if that's a hint onto some big secret about them or just them being weird for a day. It's a big world, and none of the characters nor even the audience can know everything about everyone they come across.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#19 User is offline   Not Noto 

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 09:09 AM

And keep in mind that lots of information is revealed while people are talking to each other. They could be wrong or just lie.. It happens.
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#20 User is offline   Raz4starr 

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Posted 02 February 2019 - 08:01 PM

Thanks guys for your replies. I am aware of all that, but I stand by my point that the questions I pose seem to be rather poorly set or hinted. Obviously there are powerful figures that are more subtle (Kruppe for example), but there are slight hints all over the place. In fact, the Sorry example is a very good execution of that, but even if we didn't know for a fact that Cotillion possessed her, there were hints that something is wrong with her (dead eyes, overconfidence etc.). Another good example is the deal between Hairlock and the Bridgeburners. We are never explicitly told what kind of deal was struck or when, but we know that shortly before the attack on Pale Hairlock was in the tunnels, it's hinted that he suspected Tayschrenn's plan was something bigger than just taking the city and he wanted to have his back covered. In the cases I am mentioning, there is no such thing. The characters just go from ignorant to all-knowing. And yes, it is obvious that Dujek and Whiskeyjack are not just simple officers, hell, we know that from their very first scenes, and it is no surprise that they have such means of communication and such plans, but I would just like a hint on how they came upon knowledge that supposedly is way above even their rank. I mean, it would make sense if Tayschrenn was suddenly revealed to be their ally or some such, or that they've come in contact with the Torru'd Cabal (and even then, the very high-ups), but not just like this. The 'Oh, Dujek is a cunning old dog and he has nameless spies in Laseen's bedroom' explanation does not suffice in my opinion. It seems (and probably is) nitpicky but I think it makes the book and its plot somewhat worse, that's all.
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