Malazan Empire: Dassem's motivation in the finale - Malazan Empire

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Dassem's motivation in the finale

#1 User is offline   Randomander 

  • Soletaken Dragon Reborn
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 44
  • Joined: 22-May 13

Posted 03 December 2018 - 08:46 PM

Nothing too deep, just struck me now on my third re-read that Dassem wasn't fighting Rake to win - he was fighting him to die and find Hood in Dragnipur.
0

#2 User is offline   worry 

  • Master of the Deck
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 12,950
  • Joined: 24-February 10
  • Location:the buried west

Posted 03 December 2018 - 09:56 PM

Can you change the thread title to something more neutral?
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
0

#3 User is offline   Grief 

  • Prophet of High House Mafia
  • Group: Administrators
  • Posts: 2,199
  • Joined: 11-July 08

Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:02 PM

I got it. Topic titles show up on the home page of the forum where anyone can read them so we try to avoid putting spoilers in the titles. Cheers!

Cougar said:

Grief, FFS will you do something with your sig, it's bloody awful
0

#4 User is offline   worry 

  • Master of the Deck
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 12,950
  • Joined: 24-February 10
  • Location:the buried west

Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:20 PM

Also, there's nothing better than a read (or reread) that gives you one of those a-ha moments!
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
1

#5 User is offline   Puck 

  • Mausetöter
  • Group: Mott Irregulars
  • Posts: 1,822
  • Joined: 09-February 06
  • Location:Germany

Posted 03 December 2018 - 10:33 PM

Wait, that wasn't in-your-face-obvious?
Puck was not birthed, she was cleaved from a lava flow and shaped by a fierce god's hands. - [worry]
Ninja Puck, Ninja Puck, really doesn't give a fuck..? - [King Lear]
0

#6 User is offline   blackzoid 

  • Mortal Sword
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1,044
  • Joined: 13-September 07

Posted 11 January 2019 - 09:57 AM

Nah, it wasnt obvious to me. And still isnt after multiple rereads. If Dassem wants to lose, why doesnt he just let Rake kill him? And does Dassem even know that Hood is dead, there was no mention of Hoods headless corpse just before the fight started, it might have been moved or disappeared. And once Rake is dead, why doesnt Daseem give himself a paper cut on Dragnipur to get into the warren if he wants to strangle Hood with the wagon chains or whatever?

I still find the motivation of both characters for that Dassem/Rake fight to be unfathomable.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 11 January 2019 - 10:02 AM

0

#7 User is offline   Gorefest 

  • Witness
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1,998
  • Joined: 29-May 14

Posted 11 January 2019 - 12:58 PM

It is an interesting idea, but as far as I know, when Traveller confronts Rake, he doesn't know that Hood is inside Dragnipur. This is clearly shown from the conversation he has with Rake ("Where is he?" he demanded. "I can feel – he's close. Where is he?"). He senses Hood nearby but he thinks that Rake is shielding/hiding him.

Furthermore, before Traveller confronts Rake he is stopped in the street by Cotillion. We don't know what is being said, but afterwards Traveller seems very troubled when he marches on. My interpretation was that Cotillion told Traveller that Rake is protecting Hood and that the only way to get to Hood would be through Rake. This information is a terrible burden for Traveller, because he cannot stop his search for Hood but he now also knows that he will have to kill someone he holds in very high esteem, or die in the attempt and thus fail his quest. If Traveller at that point would have known that Hood was actually inside Dragnipur, in my opinion he would not have reacted in such a way because he would not expect to have to kill/immobilise Rake, but actually 'die' himself. In the latter case, I would expect Erikson to show Traveller going towards Rake with grim determination, not with terrible grief.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 11 January 2019 - 04:33 PM

She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
1

#8 User is offline   Gorefest 

  • Witness
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1,998
  • Joined: 29-May 14

Posted 11 January 2019 - 01:23 PM

As far as Rake's motivation goes (i.e. why does he use Traveller as an instrument to get inside Dragnipur instead of, for instance, just cutting himself), my theory is that this is linked to the nature of Dragnipur and - vitally - Traveller's sword Grief/Vengeance.

Grief/Vengeance was Rake's brother's (Andarist) old weapon, which has special properties. We learn in HoC that it cannot be broken even by much heavier weapons (e.g. Dragnipur). So it is one of the very few weapons in existence that would be able to 'turn' or deflect Dragnipur instead of simply shattering upon contact. I will spoiler the next section as it may contain spoilers for later books (i.e. Kharkanas Trilogy):

Spoiler

She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
2

#9 User is offline   Not Noto 

  • Corporal
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 53
  • Joined: 04-July 16

Posted 11 January 2019 - 07:51 PM

I have never accepted that Rake lost on purpose. He wouldn't do that.
And in my Malazan world Dass rage killed Rake when he realized he couldn't get to Hood.
Simple as that.
0

#10 User is offline   worry 

  • Master of the Deck
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 12,950
  • Joined: 24-February 10
  • Location:the buried west

Posted 11 January 2019 - 08:35 PM

But it's not a 'loss'! It's what the whole meeting at the beginning of the book was about: shoring up everyone's place in ST's conspiracy, including this very duel. It's why he has those elegiac talks with Spinnock and Endest. It's what Hood was actually having second thoughts about (at first glance, and to great gallows humor effect, you naturally read it like he's referring to his own death, but subsequent events should realign that). And it's what Karsa means by "Cheated!" But again, Rake didn't really lose, since his goal was giving Mother Dark a reason to finally show her face. Besides, what would putting Dassem in the sword do other than screw up the battle against Chaos by having a gnat swatting at Hood the whole time?
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
0

#11 User is offline   Gorefest 

  • Witness
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1,998
  • Joined: 29-May 14

Posted 14 January 2019 - 12:17 PM

View PostNot Noto, on 11 January 2019 - 07:51 PM, said:

I have never accepted that Rake lost on purpose. He wouldn't do that.


Of course he would, if it serves a bigger purpose. We have seen him do before. He retreated from Pale because hanging around would have cost more lives. And the whole point of his clash with Traveller was to get inside Dragnipur. So really he didn't lose at all, he reached his objective.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 14 January 2019 - 12:17 PM

She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
0

#12 User is offline   WhiskeyJohn 

  • Corporal
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 49
  • Joined: 29-November 17

Posted 15 January 2019 - 02:40 AM

The conversation between Hood and Draconus makes it clear the whole thing was planned and premeditated between Hood and Rake.

I think you need to be defeated by the sword to enter the Warren properly. Else you'd just be the unchained like Paran. So he needed a proper combat and defeat. Only Dassem can provide that, hence the deception. Anyone else may be tempted to take the sword themselves.
0

#13 User is offline   Not Noto 

  • Corporal
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 53
  • Joined: 04-July 16

Posted 16 January 2019 - 02:39 AM

Is it a proper combat if he lose on purpose? I think not.
It doesn't make any sense to me. Why Dassem if anyone could've done it?
They needed someone they knew would beat Rake in combat.
Not fake beat.

This post has been edited by Not Noto: 16 January 2019 - 02:40 AM

0

#14 User is offline   WhiskeyJohn 

  • Corporal
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 49
  • Joined: 29-November 17

Posted 16 January 2019 - 10:29 PM

Not many could beat Rake in combat. All Elder Gods excepting Errant are passive and won't get into actual combat and Errant won't take on anyone face to face. So who else? Brood is the only active combat ascendant left and he won't fight Rake.

Anyway I think there requirement is 'inte t to defeat/kill' and not fair combat. Dassem is capable, weilds a legendary sword and has intent.
0

#15 User is offline   Morgan Lefay 

  • Lady of Black Magic
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 122
  • Joined: 11-January 11

Posted 17 January 2019 - 06:07 PM

Now in my head pops a question: why Rake entered Dragnipur unchained? Something to do with him being the bearer? It can't be, we have seen Draconus in chains. Is it because he is oh-so-awesome-Anomander? (fangirl mode off). Or is it my memory just messing things?

This post has been edited by Morgan Lefay: 17 January 2019 - 06:08 PM

Whatever walks in my heart will walk alone
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users