[Abyss]

Rules...

As of the end of DG, you would know there are multiple styles of magic... warren, elder warren, racial, shamanic, divine to name the more obvious.

Some of those overlap... Starvald Demelain is an elder warren, of Chaos, used by dragons. But a dragon in DG also used Kurald Thyrllan. Kurald Galain is the elder warren of darkness, used by the Tiste Andii, but there's also a 'human' warren of darkness called Rashan. Back in GotM you met a priestess of Fener. Fener seems to channel the Tennes warren, but not just his priests use that.

So, are there 'rules'... as of the end of DG the answer is 'maybe'. But those rules anyone may acknowledge can shift, apply differently in different situations, and be broken.

Big RAFO.

[RACHEL]

It sounds like you are not feeling any sense of danger, tension, or suspense because magic will just come in and solve it all. Finish the book. Trust me when I say no character is safe. Just because a potential magic could come to save the day does not mean that it will. Lack of well defined magic rules does not mean lack of danger.

[Dolmen 2.0]

I think You will find magic is more often than not the source of immense danger instead of the source of timely rescue.

Characters we see as invulnerable turn out to be much less than that once the correct type of problem gets flung their way. Most importantly - Warren Magic is taxing. I find a characters strength has much less to do with quantity and a lot more to do with context, skill and situation.

Shamanic magic in a place of ancestral relevance and/or ritual is unmatched, I think Sormo might have mentioned this. Shaik pushed back other powers within the area of her whirlwind because of the innate power and memory of Raraku itself.

Without spoiling too much, you should imagine similar setups in the warrens themselves. Certain places offer more access than others. If you face a Ruse mage on a ship at sea, you will lose. Or at least you should if all things were equal. Magic in MBotF is simply an extended analogy of swordsmanship.

Good ground, clever foot placement and excellent form can offer an advantage, but that won't win you the fight. Insight, speed, power and finesse play as much a role in a contest of mages as it would in a contest of swordsmen.

Erikson and ICE broaden the ideas we see in most fantasy-based games or stories, giving Warren magic character, politics and personality. it may seem random but as you RAFO (as everyone suggests) you will see there's a lot more nuance to rules within warrens and between them as well. As you get varied mage POVs you will see more and more of the picture.

It rewards patience as much as it does an inquisitive nature.

This post has been edited by Dolmen 2.0: 05 September 2018 - 10:14 PM

[Quick Moose]

Esa1996, on 02 September 2018 - 10:01 AM, said:

Quick Moose, on 01 September 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:

Esa1996, on 31 August 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

GOT's magic is good cos' it has rules? WHAT?! (I'm triggered). I HATE the magic in GOT because it has no rules whatsoever (Granted it has very little magic too, but whenever there is some magic in it it tends to break all the rules that have been established so far).

As for the question, Malazan has very loose rules but it has rules.

I never said Got's magic was good.

The GoT universe, to me, has constraints on it's phenomena.
I haven't got that yet in Malazan.

I would love to hear examples of GoT magic you noticed that broke established rules.
(Not that I think you're wrong, but actually would be interested in hearing you being right, and make me rethink what it is I'm getting at haha).

Sorry for the misquote (Got's magic is good cos'...).

SPOILERS FOR ASOIAF BOOKS 1 - 5, AND GOT SEASONS 1 - 7

Spoiler

Most of my annoyance at GOT's magic comes from the "Only death pays for life" rule. Counting Jon and the dragons, there have been a total of 11 resurrections in the series (3 dragons, Beric Dondarrion x 6, Lady Stoneheart, Jon Snow (I did not count the Mountain into this)), yet only two of those resurrection have been paid for with a death.

Also, you might imagine that magic requires someone to initiate it, that it doesn't just happen.

1. Mirri Mas Duur sacrifices a horse to PRESERVE Drogo's life. He becomes a braindead vegetable but still alive. No resurrection here.

2. Dany resurrects 3 dragons and becomes momentarily (According to Martin) fireproof, by burning Mirri Mas Duur and Drogo's dead body. 1 life for 3 lives and fire immunity + no one initiated any magic to resurrect anything or anyone (MMD might have accidentally made Dany fireproof while trying to make herself fireproof).

3. Thoros of Myr resurrects Beric Dondarrion a total of six times, none of which include any sacrifice, only prayers.

4. Thoros is unable to resurrect Lady Stoneheart so Beric does it instead (This is the second instance where a life is actually sacrificed to bring someone to life).

5. Melisandre brings Jon Snow back to life, once again with no sacrifices whatsoever.

Other annoyances are the Shadowbabies. Stannis made two, one for Renly and one for the castellan of Storm's End. Why didn't he make more? Perhaps he can't. Why didn't he order Melisandre to make more with someone else? Perhaps they need king's blood to do it. Why did he waste them on such unimportant people? Take out Joffrey and take King's Landing and the Iron Throne and he'd have been in a far better position than he ended up in.

Also, in book 5 at Daznak's Pit, Dany who, according to Martin, was only fireproof for that single moment in book one when she resurrected the dragons, gets her hair on fire but doesn't receive any burns so even though Martin claims she was fireproof only for a moment, she seems to be fireproof consistently. If we go with the TV show, she again becomes fireproof for the Dothraki scene where she burns the tent / house and steps outside.

In Malazan heavy use of magic is always present so if it occasionally saves the day it doesn't bother me, but in ASOIAF where there's no magic at all unless Martin has written himself into a corner where he can't get out from without it, it does bother me quite a bit. The only instances of magic in ASOIAF that don't annoy me are the prophecies and the White Walker resurrection magic.

Should be noted that despite my intense dislike of magic in ASOIAF it is still my favorite fantasy series after Wheel of Time and Malazan.

I didn't think the "only death pays for life' mantra was universal in GoT?
I thought it was only specific to that particular discipline?
Maybe I'm wrong.

[Esa1996]

Quick Moose, on 06 September 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

Esa1996, on 02 September 2018 - 10:01 AM, said:

Quick Moose, on 01 September 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:

Esa1996, on 31 August 2018 - 09:43 PM, said:

GOT's magic is good cos' it has rules? WHAT?! (I'm triggered). I HATE the magic in GOT because it has no rules whatsoever (Granted it has very little magic too, but whenever there is some magic in it it tends to break all the rules that have been established so far).

As for the question, Malazan has very loose rules but it has rules.

I never said Got's magic was good.

The GoT universe, to me, has constraints on it's phenomena.
I haven't got that yet in Malazan.

I would love to hear examples of GoT magic you noticed that broke established rules.
(Not that I think you're wrong, but actually would be interested in hearing you being right, and make me rethink what it is I'm getting at haha).

Sorry for the misquote (Got's magic is good cos'...).

SPOILERS FOR ASOIAF BOOKS 1 - 5, AND GOT SEASONS 1 - 7

Spoiler

Most of my annoyance at GOT's magic comes from the "Only death pays for life" rule. Counting Jon and the dragons, there have been a total of 11 resurrections in the series (3 dragons, Beric Dondarrion x 6, Lady Stoneheart, Jon Snow (I did not count the Mountain into this)), yet only two of those resurrection have been paid for with a death.

Also, you might imagine that magic requires someone to initiate it, that it doesn't just happen.

1. Mirri Mas Duur sacrifices a horse to PRESERVE Drogo's life. He becomes a braindead vegetable but still alive. No resurrection here.

2. Dany resurrects 3 dragons and becomes momentarily (According to Martin) fireproof, by burning Mirri Mas Duur and Drogo's dead body. 1 life for 3 lives and fire immunity + no one initiated any magic to resurrect anything or anyone (MMD might have accidentally made Dany fireproof while trying to make herself fireproof).

3. Thoros of Myr resurrects Beric Dondarrion a total of six times, none of which include any sacrifice, only prayers.

4. Thoros is unable to resurrect Lady Stoneheart so Beric does it instead (This is the second instance where a life is actually sacrificed to bring someone to life).

5. Melisandre brings Jon Snow back to life, once again with no sacrifices whatsoever.

Other annoyances are the Shadowbabies. Stannis made two, one for Renly and one for the castellan of Storm's End. Why didn't he make more? Perhaps he can't. Why didn't he order Melisandre to make more with someone else? Perhaps they need king's blood to do it. Why did he waste them on such unimportant people? Take out Joffrey and take King's Landing and the Iron Throne and he'd have been in a far better position than he ended up in.

Also, in book 5 at Daznak's Pit, Dany who, according to Martin, was only fireproof for that single moment in book one when she resurrected the dragons, gets her hair on fire but doesn't receive any burns so even though Martin claims she was fireproof only for a moment, she seems to be fireproof consistently. If we go with the TV show, she again becomes fireproof for the Dothraki scene where she burns the tent / house and steps outside.

In Malazan heavy use of magic is always present so if it occasionally saves the day it doesn't bother me, but in ASOIAF where there's no magic at all unless Martin has written himself into a corner where he can't get out from without it, it does bother me quite a bit. The only instances of magic in ASOIAF that don't annoy me are the prophecies and the White Walker resurrection magic.

Should be noted that despite my intense dislike of magic in ASOIAF it is still my favorite fantasy series after Wheel of Time and Malazan.

I didn't think the "only death pays for life' mantra was universal in GoT?
I thought it was only specific to that particular discipline?
Maybe I'm wrong.

It might well be that it's only relevant to that single style of magic. Even so, the only time we've seen said magic in use the numbers didn't add up so the one case where we can be sure that the mantra was relevant, it still wasn't true.

[Quick Moose]

Spoiler

Got to read a little more.
Kalam and others find themselves in an Imperial Warren!
A hornet's nest!
Guess who isn't worried?
Me.

Then,
Kulp needs a boost to get out of a pit,
plans on standing on Heboric's shoulders.
But why do that when.... Heboric has invisible hands to hoist him up, with super strength!!
Woohoo!!

Sorry to keep commenting on this topic,
but man, there are enough rabbits get pulled out of hats in these books for a thousand Easter parties.

I will RAFO of course, and I do love these books.
Starting to think... what does it matter? Just enjoy them for what they are.

[Emancipor Reese]

In ASOIAF its The Church of Starry Wisdom that seem to Kickstart the use of Magic from Ashai, And they seem to derive it from the Black Stones that fell from space, they also spread it about,when out of the blue they endowed a group of Goat herders on Valyria with knowledge of how to control Dragons(which originated from Ashai), the Bloodstone Emperor and he's links to bringing on the Long night. they seem to have a hand in its use and control all over the planet.

[Nevyn]

I would say game of thrones is a bad example of rules, because while there are some, they are never really laid out.

What can transfer do or not do? There is ambiguity about prophecy, about Dany and fire, etc.

Mbotf is very reliant on pov, so it sets up rules based on the knowledge and expectation of characters, which can sometimes be wrong. There are general rules, but there are also exceptions.

The easiest way to say it is that there are rules, but the characters don't know them or understand them completely and so neither does the reader.

[rant]

Quick Moose, on 17 September 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

Spoiler

Got to read a little more.
Kalam and others find themselves in an Imperial Warren!
A hornet's nest!
Guess who isn't worried?
Me.

Then,
Kulp needs a boost to get out of a pit,
plans on standing on Heboric's shoulders.
But why do that when.... Heboric has invisible hands to hoist him up, with super strength!!
Woohoo!!

Sorry to keep commenting on this topic,
but man, there are enough rabbits get pulled out of hats in these books for a thousand Easter parties.

I will RAFO of course, and I do love these books.
Starting to think... what does it matter? Just enjoy them for what they are.

It seems you've created a rule of your own based off the evidence you've been presented up to this point: there are no rules. What evidence do you have to is that (I'm asking that non-confrontationally btw!)?
Semi-serious question.... what if there are no rules? Does that destroy the stakes of the story for you?

On a side note, I think you're falling prey to the frequency illusion a bit.

E.G. In the journey of Felisin, Baudin, Heboric, how many times did you note the role that preparation played in their escape? Cause it is a lot. Particularly in comparison to how magic helped them. Heck, you could argue that random magical occurrences (e.g. Heboric touching the jade statue, the crazy mage in the sea, everything that happened in the Nascent) actually work to raise the stakes of their journey.

This post has been edited by rant: 25 September 2018 - 02:38 AM

[marilynmoss]

i dont know

[Nortros]

It seems to me that there are some misunderstandings concerning magic in this series and the comparison made to other series:
- This is a high fantasy, high magic world. You cannot really compare the world to GoT or LotR. In terms of the rarity and specialty of magic it is best compared to traditional D&D settings like Forgotten Realms where magic is part of everyday life and not something that is special or rare.
- Now, MBotF is frequently compared to GoT, but that is not because of the story or the setting (i.e. world), but because both series deviate rather drastically from the aforementioned D&D settings in terms of how the story is related to the reader and how they both deviate from these settings.
- As you have noted by now, this series is not going to spoon-feed you exact rules about magic. Instead one should expect it to be a slow process. This has a lot to do with the kind of PoV chosen in the books. The characters whose PoV we get simply do not ask questions about how magic works as it is just part of their life and as long as they do not have to explain it to somebody, the reader is not going to find out more about magic.
- Furthermore, just because people use magic to escape certain situations does not imply that these uses are instances of Deus Ex Machina as most of the situations in book 1 and 2 are nowhere near unsolvable which is a key component of a Deus Ex Machina. Additionally, most of the things here are still work-in-progress as the series has a long way to go and many mysteries will be solved later on (the obligatory 'aha'-effect where everything suddenly makes sense).
I hope this helps a bit.

This post has been edited by Nortros: 15 October 2018 - 02:01 PM

[RACHEL]

You say you love these books but it really doesn't sound like you do. If magic is helpful ever you are obviously annoyed and taken out of the story while you think about how magic solves everything. Why keep reading something that is frequently annoying. It seems to have grown so irritating to you that you are not even enjoying or understanding the story at all. Heboric did not just suddenly grow ghost hands to help Kulp up. They came from a culmination of events and clearly you have not even seen how awful his journey has been and how near death he has been. All you see are ghost hands suddenly appearing from nowhere, for no reason other than to help a guy up out of a pit. It seems crazy to me that you could read about all the awful things that have happened so far in the series and yet you think magic always saves the day. If you are able to see and get overly annoyed at magic when it does anything good, but are somehow unable to see any of the bad it has done so far, than these books are not for you. If you are finding it this easy to pick this book apart then it's probably a good idea to move on to books that keep your interest and don't annoy you.

[Mako2401]

I haven't finished the books yet (still on Memories of Ice due to real life problems ) but I always, even from the first book realized that there are rules of magic in the Malazan world. I think playing Dark Souls before I started the series made me more comfortable with not knowing things/going along with them . How does the Moon's Spawn move? I'll find out later. What's the deal with the tarot cards and magic? I'll find out later. Also I trust the writer completely. I agree that it's not like in some other series, like in Dresden Files, where Harry Dresden literally tells you "this does this, so I need to do this in order to achieve my goal" but the rules are clearly present.