[Lister of Smeg]

AFFC took a damned ice age to write and by the time it came out I had become really tired of GRRM (having discovered Erikson in the interim). I had hoped AFFC would reignite my love for ASOIAF, but instead it was the worst book I've read in the last year, and I've read a couple of Chris Bunch books in that time! I seriously, seriously disliked that book. It was slow, boring, had too many Brienne chapters with nothing happening, and didn't have any of my favourite characters except the one I am named after here.

Erikson was my favourite author, just ahead of Martin, before their last books came out. Now, having compared TBH with AFFC, Erikson is light years ahead. Martin has gone way down in my estimation. Sometimes, I would be tempted to rank Robin Hobb above him now.

[Astra]

Lord Baelish said:

Sometimes, I would be tempted to rank Robin Hobb above him now.

She is one of my favorite writers. I have read first 2 trilogies of hers. They are VERY good. One of the best fantasy I have ever read

[Werthead]

That is the question isn't it? As powerful as magic has become I don't think it's that powerful, so I think it's safe to say that there's a question here that remains unanswered.

I would say that AFFC and TBH have some of the same weaknesses, most notably that both books end on an avalanche of cliffhangers and both books felt artificially assembled out of spare plotlines left lying around rather than successfully working as novels in themselves. I wouldn't rank either as the strongest in their respective series.

[Abyss]

Werthead said:

...AFFC and TBH have some of the same weaknesses, most notably that both books end on an avalanche of cliffhangers...

Totally agree with you on AFFC. Without venturing into spoilers in a non-TB forum, I thought the ending just set a new status quo. Not like AFCC's cliffhangers where characters were left hanging, literally.

As for Hobb, opinion seems split on her. Have debated picking up her series(es).

- Abyss, hates being left hanging, literally or otherwise. But especially literally, i get SUCH a crick in my neck...

[rlfcl]

i've read the farseer and tawny man trilogies and they're both very good. the ending to the tawny man trilogy was perfect. out of the three authors (Erikson, Martin, and Hobb) i would say hobb has the most real and three dimensional characters (likely helped by the fact that it's written in 1st person POV).

i really don't get why people are badmouthing AFFC for the reasons i'm hearing. while it did leave us somewhat hanging at the end, what GRRm novel doesnt do that? we saw alot of stuff happen in this book, and alot of characters got fleshed out immensely. believe me i went in expecting to be disappointed since almost none of my favourite characters (besides arya) were in it, but finished the book very satisfied and with aliking for characters (ie brienne) that had just annoyed the hell out of me before.

[Abyss]

Oh, i liked the book. But i dislike when an author, be it GRRM or anyone, pulls the old TV cliffhanger car-goes-over-the-cliff-and-'splodes-and-oh-my-god-did-the-hero-bail-out-in-time ending on a book. As he did with Brienne at a minimum, and in my mind, Arya as well. He closed out the Jaime storyline well, and arguably Sam and Cersei set up new status quos, so in theory their storylines for this book 'ended'... ie: that part of the characters journey was 'complete'.

At least in TV, you wait a week, or a few months post season-finale, and then you find out what happened. With massive fantasy books, the wait-counts are in YEARS. Sometimes many, many years. And it's just my never so humble opinion, but i think that's a crap thing to do to someone who paid for your book and spent the time reading it. Leave an ending open ended, sure. Fantasy series are fun because they run for thousands of pages and years and books. But when the book ends, end that _part_ of the story.

- Abyss, keeps the car door unlocked for situations like that.

[Werthead]

I agree with that, although it should be pointed out that definitely Arya and possibly Brianne's storylines will be resolved in the next book which is only (touch wood) 12-18 months away.

Hobb, better characters than Martin? No way. Pretty good characterisation (although rather poor worldbuilding and not very good pacing IMO), certainly, but do the Fool and Fitz and even the strangely pitiable Kendrick stay in the mind as long as Tyrion, Jon and Walder Frey? Certainly not IMO.

[rlfcl]

Werthead said:

I agree with that, although it should be pointed out that definitely Arya and possibly Brianne's storylines will be resolved in the next book which is only (touch wood) 12-18 months away.

Hobb, better characters than Martin? No way. Pretty good characterisation (although rather poor worldbuilding and not very good pacing IMO), certainly, but do the Fool and Fitz and even the strangely pitiable Kendrick stay in the mind as long as Tyrion, Jon and Walder Frey? Certainly not IMO.

i would say that fitz, burrich and even say, molly or chade are more realistic and well rounded characters than any of the people in ASOIAF. but that's just my opinion.

[Anomander Rake]

I've just finished the book myself, and did enjoy it. Though I do believe there were too many cliffhangers at the end, which if he takes too long in releasing the next volume will be annoying. Only one of my fav characters from the series was in this book (Arya). I agree it is the weakest book in the series, but I am hoping that the rest of the planned volumes are released in a timely manner.

Though I do have a question, I thought the reason for writing AFfC was because originally there was a planned 5 year gap between 3rd and 4th book, but because some important events happen in that period GRRM decided to cover that period. But AFfC seem to cover at maximum one year, what's with that?

[Werthead]

The 5-year-wait thing was supposed to be to allow the kids to grow up and for the dragons to mature. That's why compared to the other three books A Storm of Swords has a somewhat 'neat' ending, with things unresolved but not exactly cliffhangers.

Martin started writing A Dance with Dragons with it set 5 years later, but immediately encountered the problem that lots of stuff had happened in those five years to certain characters (Arya, Bran, Tyrion) but other characters had been sitting around with virtually nothing happening of note to them (Jon, Daenerys, Jaime, Cersei, Sansa). He also felt the momentum of the story kind of died ("The Others are coming...they're coming...oh, they've buggered off for half a decade"). So he ditched the 5-year-gap and started writing A Feast for Crows to cover those events.

In doing so he also ditched the 5-year time period. AFFC actually covers a period of roughly 5 months and ADWD will run parallel to it, maybe extending an extra 3-4 months beyond it. There will be no more gaps in the story. Apparently from the latter part of AFFC and ADWD the story is full-on until the end. GRRM has basically said that if this means that an 11-year-old has to become a master assassin, then so be it (it should be pointed out that from the POV characters only Bran and to some extent Arya are left in difficult positions by this: Sansa is 14, Dany is 15 and Jon is 16, all old enough to be considered adults in their society).

However, the remaining books will continue to cover quite large periods of time, so from now until the end of Book 7 another 2-3 years will likely pass, but fully described.

[RodeoRanch]

Cool beans.

Thanks, Werthead, for all the info!

[Brahm_K]

Werthead said:

In doing so he also ditched the 5-year time period. AFFC actually covers a period of roughly 5 months and ADWD will run parallel to it, maybe extending an extra 3-4 months beyond it.

Actually, I believe folks doing the re-read at the ASOiAF board have come to the conclusion, based on evidence within AFFC, that the time span of AFFC is appoximately a year.

[Anomander Rake]

Thanks Werthead, that's cleared things up. I've hadn't kept up to date with the changes in plan.

[Werthead]

Brahm_K said:

Actually, I believe folks doing the re-read at the ASOiAF board have come to the conclusion, based on evidence within AFFC, that the time span of AFFC is appoximately a year.

The conclusion seems to be approximately 7 months, possibly extending to 8. More than what I would put it at, but possible given we don't know how long Sam and co. stayed in Braavos. Not as long as a year though.

[garden_rake]

just finished 'The Hedge Knight' novella, and i really enjoyed it. I had no idea it was in comic book format but i thought it worked well and the story provided a good bit of background to those mad dragons. How many other westeros novellas does he have out at the mo?

[Werthead]

There are two: The Hedge Knight and The Sworn Sword. The prose version of The Hedge Knight is available in this volume of Robert Silverberg's Legends I anthology:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/081257523...5Fencoding=UTF8

or

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...6557147-5735953

The Sworn Sword is available in this volume of the Legends II anthology:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/034547578...5Fencoding=UTF8

or

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...6557147-5735953

A graphic novel version of The Sworn Sword will be available at the end of this year.

Martin has nearly finished the third short story (no title as yet), which many speculate is set in the North. Since there won't be a Legends III anthology, it's unclear where it's going to be published. All three revolve around the characters of Dunk and Egg and are set between the years 209 and 213 AL (A Game of Thrones begins in 298 AL and AFFC ends somewhere in the middle of 300 AL). GRRM has said that there will be at least nine and possibly twelve of these short stories. The fourth, fifth and sixth will be released between the forthcoming volumes of the main sequence and the rest will follow when he finds the time to write them. They will later be collected in two or three anthologies. The plan is for the novellas to cover the lives of both Dunk and Egg (which we know from A Storm of Swords will come to an end in 259 AL).

[Dolorous Menhir]

I'm not going to be reading these books any time soon, could you please tell me who Dunc was?

Spoiler

I know that Egg was Maester Aemon's brother, Aegon (the Fourth?), so was Dunc a Targaryen or other famous knight too?

[Werthead]

OK:

Spoiler

Dunk is Ser Duncan the Tall, a peasent boy from Flea Bottom in King's Landing who became a squire who became a knight when his master, Ser Arlan of Pennytree, died of a chill. Duncan took part in the great tourney at Ashford Meadow in 209 AL, but became embroiled in a fight wherein he beat the crap out of Prince Aerion Targaryen (who was beating a girl Duncan liked), who was obviously unimpressed. A Trial of Seven was held, seven men fighting another seven, to determine the gods' will in the matter. Prince Baelor, heir to the throne, controversially took Dunk's side, whilst his brother and Aerion's father Maekar took Aerion's side. The outcome of this battle is resolved in The Hedge Knight.

Later, Dunk and Egg wandered the Seven Kingdoms, Dunk insistent on showing Egg how the common folk of Westeros lived to make him a better lord later. In the event, all of Maekar's other children died bar Aemon and Aegon. Aemon was a maester and removed himself to the Wall, leaving Aegon to inherit the crown as King Aegon V. Ser Duncan was his constant friend and companion. Evidence from AFFC suggests that Duncan may have married a daughter of House Tarth, but if so she died of unknown causes. Duncan may be Lord Selwyn of Tarth's father or grandfather and thus Brienne's grandfather or great-grandfather. Duncan joined the Kingsguard some time after, becoming Lord Commander. When he was fairly advanced in years, the rarely-beaten Duncan was finally toppled in a tourney by a young knight named Barristan Selmy.

King Aegon V Targaryen, his eldest son Prince Duncan the Small, Lord Commander Duncan the Tall and countless others died in the Great Fire of Summerhall in 259 AL, the same night that Rhaegar Targaryen was born to Aegon V's grandson Prince Aerys (later King Aerys II, the Mad King).

[Dolorous Menhir]

Spoiler

Ah, so in the chapter where Jaime read from the Kingsguard record book, and he quoted from passages written by Barristan Selmy's predecessor as Commander, they were written by Ser Duncan? Or was there an intervening Lord Commander between Dunc and Selmy?

I also remember someone telling the story of a tournament in the not-so-recent past, about an unnamed great knight who lost at tourney to an unknown knight...I can't remember what book it was in, had assumed perhaps Rhaegar or Robert were the subjects of that story, was it actually the event you talk about?