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Add ReplyQuickTidal said:
(and by that I mean, it REALLY doesn't need to be discussed on that level....hence my answer)
You don't "need" to read novels at all. In the grand scheme of things, they're a massive waste of time and money.
George RR Martin
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#301 Guest_Indebted_*
Posted 10 January 2006 - 10:20 AM
You don't "need" to read novels at all. In the grand scheme of things, they're a massive waste of time and money.
MultiQuote
#302
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Posted 10 January 2006 - 03:54 PM
Well, in the massive sceme of things, money is entirely irrelevant. But this is a discussion forum;)
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde; keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.
#303 Guest_Indebted_*
Posted 10 January 2006 - 04:19 PM
caladanbrood said:
Well, in the massive sceme of things, money is entirely irrelevant. But this is a discussion forum;)
I don't think Littlefinger, the Lannisters, or the Letherii would agree with you.
#304 Guest_Baeraad_*
Posted 10 January 2006 - 11:25 PM
Quote
I found the idea that he originally planned to put no fantasy elements at all into ASoIF, just have it as a different world with different history, quite interesting. In the end his friends convinced him to put the dragons in, and then the long seasons and the Others and everything followed.
I've heard that before, but I don't understand how it's possible. I mean, I've also read (in Martin's own letters, no less), that the story grew up around the first chapter of AGOT. And that chapter has, if not magic per se, then at least a pretty supernatural feel to it, with omens and the will of the gods and so forth...
Have I misunderstood something?
#305 Guest_Sonnyboy_*
Posted 11 January 2006 - 03:15 AM
Right. I'll bite. I'm not about to read through 303 or however many posts about an author I've never read, so I've skipped pretty much to the end. Question: If you wanted to convince me I should be a George R R Martin fan, which of his books should I read first? Bear in mind that I can say with 100% certainty I will not be reading it until next fall at the earliest.
#306 Guest_bluesman_*
Posted 11 January 2006 - 12:11 PM
That's easy to answer 
. A song of Ice and Fire.
It's very good but I stand by my earlier statement. I know it's like cursing in a Church in a fantasy forum but when something is close to reallity I prefer reallity. Hence. I still wish he would go "historical fiction" covering basically that period.
bm
. A song of Ice and Fire.It's very good but I stand by my earlier statement. I know it's like cursing in a Church in a fantasy forum but when something is close to reallity I prefer reallity. Hence. I still wish he would go "historical fiction" covering basically that period.
bm
#307 Guest_Sonnyboy_*
Posted 11 January 2006 - 12:35 PM
I like things to have an air of reality at least. I can make concessions for fantasy elements, like non-human creatures and to some degree magic, but I likes my fantasy to take place in a well-thought out, logical world. If you know what I mean.
#308 Guest_bluesman_*
Posted 11 January 2006 - 12:44 PM
And this is why I think Erikson is so good.
It's fantastic but logical within it's context. Had we not known about the Celtic/Greek/Roman pantheon then Eriksons version could certainly have been the basis for a real life religion.
I have to be honest. Had it not been for the "Wall" and the "Others" then I probably wouldn't have stayed with this series. This is what made this series for me.
bm
It's fantastic but logical within it's context. Had we not known about the Celtic/Greek/Roman pantheon then Eriksons version could certainly have been the basis for a real life religion.
I have to be honest. Had it not been for the "Wall" and the "Others" then I probably wouldn't have stayed with this series. This is what made this series for me.
bm
#309 Guest_Indebted_*
Posted 11 January 2006 - 03:36 PM
Sonnyboy said:
I like things to have an air of reality at least. I can make concessions for fantasy elements, like non-human creatures and to some degree magic, but I likes my fantasy to take place in a well-thought out, logical world. If you know what I mean.
Air of reality? Well thought out logical world?
I'd love to see your homeworld some day...
#310 Guest_Dryad_*
Posted 11 January 2006 - 06:40 PM
Well, for myself, I haven't read any more of ASOIF since book 3, and refuse to read more until the whole darned thing is published. I've been burned before (hello, JV Jones) and I'm not going there again if I can possibly help it.
Having said that, comparing Erikson to Martin is like like comparing oranges to avocados - yeah, they're both fruits that grow on trees, but they're otherwise nothing alike! I find ASOIF a far more traditional fantasy than TatM:BotF (what is the acronym for this beast, anyway? Is there a list somewhere?) - not that there's anything wrong with that - in its plot and movement, and to be honest, I find it just a little tiring.
Dryad
Having said that, comparing Erikson to Martin is like like comparing oranges to avocados - yeah, they're both fruits that grow on trees, but they're otherwise nothing alike! I find ASOIF a far more traditional fantasy than TatM:BotF (what is the acronym for this beast, anyway? Is there a list somewhere?) - not that there's anything wrong with that - in its plot and movement, and to be honest, I find it just a little tiring.
Dryad
#311
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Posted 11 January 2006 - 07:16 PM
There is no 'official' acronym for MBF I use MBF, as you may have just noticed, simply as it is short and to the point.
If you want to start with A Song of Ice and Fire then the most straightforward way is to pick up A Game of Thrones (Book 1) and read on from there. There are two prequel short stories, The Hedge Knight and The Sworn Sword, which can be read without prior knowledge of the series, but they take place 90 years before the books and only have a minor impact on the 'big' story in the novels. Neither of them have any magical elements in them at all. By the time you do start reading in the autumn, we should have (fingers crossed) the fifth novel either out or about to come out, and definitely the third short story as well.
As for the level of magic in ASoIF: probably slightly higher than in Lord of the Rings. You have magical or semi-magical creatures, such as basilisks, manticores and obviously dragons, although they are rare, and a low level of spellcasting, mostly restricted to just two or three characters. There's also certain structures (The Wall, Storm's End, Dragonstone) which were built with magic and at least one place (Harrenhal) that is cursed somehow. I'd put the amount of magic in the series at about 5% of MBF, if that.
As for the no-magic version of ASoIF, I think GRRM mentioned that the direwolf scene that he first came up with could be read as a portent of things to come or just one of those weird coincidences that crop up in life (like a guy writing a novel about the biggest ocean liner ever which was sent to sea without enough lifeboats that hit a iceberg and went down with over 1,000 deaths...and publishing it in 1896 and calling the ship 'Titan'). He still won't elaborate on it being some kind of mystical happening or pure chance. The direwolves themselves aren't mystical as they really existed, I think in Iceland and Scandanavia hundreds of years ago.
I use MBF, as you may have just noticed, simply as it is short and to the point.If you want to start with A Song of Ice and Fire then the most straightforward way is to pick up A Game of Thrones (Book 1) and read on from there. There are two prequel short stories, The Hedge Knight and The Sworn Sword, which can be read without prior knowledge of the series, but they take place 90 years before the books and only have a minor impact on the 'big' story in the novels. Neither of them have any magical elements in them at all. By the time you do start reading in the autumn, we should have (fingers crossed) the fifth novel either out or about to come out, and definitely the third short story as well.
As for the level of magic in ASoIF: probably slightly higher than in Lord of the Rings. You have magical or semi-magical creatures, such as basilisks, manticores and obviously dragons, although they are rare, and a low level of spellcasting, mostly restricted to just two or three characters. There's also certain structures (The Wall, Storm's End, Dragonstone) which were built with magic and at least one place (Harrenhal) that is cursed somehow. I'd put the amount of magic in the series at about 5% of MBF, if that.
As for the no-magic version of ASoIF, I think GRRM mentioned that the direwolf scene that he first came up with could be read as a portent of things to come or just one of those weird coincidences that crop up in life (like a guy writing a novel about the biggest ocean liner ever which was sent to sea without enough lifeboats that hit a iceberg and went down with over 1,000 deaths...and publishing it in 1896 and calling the ship 'Titan'). He still won't elaborate on it being some kind of mystical happening or pure chance. The direwolves themselves aren't mystical as they really existed, I think in Iceland and Scandanavia hundreds of years ago.
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#312
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Posted 11 January 2006 - 07:34 PM
Werthead said:
As for the no-magic version of ASoIF...
What? Another version? What are you talking about?
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#313 Guest_bluesman_*
Posted 11 January 2006 - 08:17 PM
Arkmam said:
What? Another version? What are you talking about?
None exists. It sprang from my notion that I would like to see him tackle a real historic fiction at some future point.
The hedge knight might be quite close.
bm
#314
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Posted 11 January 2006 - 09:59 PM
When he came up with the idea and the first couple of chapters in 1991, GRRM originally planned ASoIF to have no magic or fantasy elements at all in it. It would have just been the story of the War of the Five Kings (presumably). No dragons, no Other, no Wall, no weird seasons, etc. However, several of his friends suggested that he take more of a Tolkien-esque approach and have a low level of magic. So pretty early on GRRM changed his mind and changed the story to add the dragons and all the other magical elements. He's said he might revisit this idea in a future novel.
The Hedge Knight and The Sworn Sword have, as far as I can tell, absolutely no magic at all in them, save one of the characters in The Hedge Knight has dreams that sometimes come true (this has nothing to do with THK, but sets up some later events in Targaryen history).
The Hedge Knight and The Sworn Sword have, as far as I can tell, absolutely no magic at all in them, save one of the characters in The Hedge Knight has dreams that sometimes come true (this has nothing to do with THK, but sets up some later events in Targaryen history).
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"Try standing out in a winter storm all night and see how tough you are. Start with that. Then go into a bar and pick a fight and see how tough you are. And then go home and break crockery over your head. Start with those three and you'll be good to go."
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#315
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Posted 11 January 2006 - 10:04 PM
Ok, you scared me there
Again, I urge everyone to read the Hedge Knight, it's a great read if you like AsoIaF.
Again, I urge everyone to read the Hedge Knight, it's a great read if you like AsoIaF.
"If you got dragnipur'd, chaos would move closer."
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#316 Guest_Sonnyboy_*
Posted 12 January 2006 - 08:58 AM
Right... you know, I have been tempted in the stores to pick that one up before, but I'm REALLLLLLY skeptical of fantasy fiction. I make a point of never trusting the review excerpts thrown in by the publisher. Problem is, you all are pretty much the only people I know who also read fantasy (that aren't complete idiots -- you're not idiots, are you?) and who can help me find other good things to read.
Thanks.
Thanks.
#317
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Posted 13 January 2006 - 06:30 PM
About 1/4 the way through AFFC, and GRRM hasn't disappointed yet. It's like he's not writing about fictional characters - it's like these are people he's actually met and is just recording what they say and do...for my money, nobody does it better...
OK, I think I got it, but just in case, can you say the whole thing over again? I wasn't really listening.
#318
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Posted 13 January 2006 - 08:30 PM
GRRM's greatest ability in this series is making a fantasy novel read and feel like historical fiction. The fantasy elements are low-key to start off with and get slightly larger as the series continues.
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"Try standing out in a winter storm all night and see how tough you are. Start with that. Then go into a bar and pick a fight and see how tough you are. And then go home and break crockery over your head. Start with those three and you'll be good to go."
- Bruce Campbell on how to be as cool as he is
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#319
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Posted 17 January 2006 - 01:49 PM
Anyone else catch the WoT reference in AFFC? Archmaester Rigney and his theory that history is a wheel? (RJ's real name is James Rigney) I found that a bit of an eyeball-roller...
OK, I think I got it, but just in case, can you say the whole thing over again? I wasn't really listening.
#320
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Posted 17 January 2006 - 04:49 PM
longhorn said:
Anyone else catch the WoT reference in AFFC? Archmaester Rigney and his theory that history is a wheel? (RJ's real name is James Rigney) I found that a bit of an eyeball-roller...
There's two more, in fact. The first is when Oberyn first arrives in Kings Landing, and one of the Dornish people that arrives with him is Lady Jordayne of the Tor. In AFFC, we learn the name of the Lord of that noble house, Trebor (hint... Read that backwards). Kind of amusing, if anything.
