[Mako2401]

I read GotM and night of Knives before this book, but suddenly, this book erupts in violence, especially violence and rape of women, including young girls, all sorts of descriptions of gruesome deaths and overall Mel Gibson level of violence porn . Another thing I noticed is this enormous amount of nihilism. After the first book, where we had (relatively) good guys and bad guys, here everyone is either a cynic or a nihilist. Not to mention some disgusting characters like Felisin (I'm supposed to care about her?) , or an Empire that makes no sense (still have no idea how this Empire even exists with this kind of terrible organization.) If the book series is as violent and nihilistic as it is in this book, then I'll reconsider binging this series and take a break between this and the next book .

[Andorion]

 Mako2401, on 29 May 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

I read GotM and night of Knives before this book, but suddenly, this book erupts in violence, especially violence and rape of women, including young girls, all sorts of descriptions of gruesome deaths and overall Mel Gibson level of violence porn . Another thing I noticed is this enormous amount of nihilism. After the first book, where we had (relatively) good guys and bad guys, here everyone is either a cynic or a nihilist. Not to mention some disgusting characters like Felisin (I'm supposed to care about her?) , or an Empire that makes no sense (still have no idea how this Empire even exists with this kind of terrible organization.) If the book series is as violent and nihilistic as it is in this book, then I'll reconsider binging this series and take a break between this and the next book .

I would really ask you to be patient.

Yes there is a lot of violence. And some cynicism. But not nihilism. Erikson has gone on record against what he perceives to be the nihilism of the grimdark subgenre. Most readers who have read the entire series agree that the overarching theme is about compassion.

This is a huge series, stretching over many long books, with complex in-depth world building, rich history and mythology and thousands of characters. There is simply no way you can judge the philosophical stance of the entire series from the second book

[Vengeance]

In the second book you expedience a refugee retreat during a rebellion where there are going to be violent acts. The events in this book influence the events in the rest of the series. But there is not the mass exodus during a rebellion in any other book. There are different violent acts in the other books. There is a lot of grey ground in the books this isn't a black and white acts type of series.

Think of DeadHouse gates as a Trail of tears mixed with a civil war in the desert.

[nacht]

A lot of shit happens in this world, even as I type this now. That is reality and some people read books to escape the shitty reality.
Nowhere in this series did the author intend to give you a rise from the violence. but he will not hide it from you either. If you want to come out the series feeling good, with a vicarious feeling of heroism, then this is not your series.

[Yllana]

@nacht: I disagree. You will come out of this series feeling good. Of course not in a happy-go-lucky "the world is a great place and all people are angels"-kind of way, but I would say the overall message of the series is that people are capable of feeling compassion and that standing up for your comrades is worth it. When I finished tCG for the first time, I felt elated, not depressed.

@Mako2401: yes, the books books contain explicit depictions of violence and all kinds of horrible situations people in warzones can find themselves in (just wait for book three!), but I think there is a huge difference between the way the characters in the MBotF react to this violence as compared to ths in your average grimdark novel. Of course, some of the soldiers are jaded and not easy to faze, but that doesn't mean they just shrug it off. You get so many glimspes in the minds of these characters that show that everyone has troubles dealing with the atrocities - Erikson makes it very clear that nihilism (and even cynicism) are not the underlying principles of his world.And by the way, the Malazan army has outlawed rape and pillaging.
About Felisin: she's probably not a likeable character, but she is an extremely complex and realistic one. She has to protect herself (and Heboric - noone forced her to do that) somehow, using drastic measures like selling her own body, but then to stay somewhat sane while doing all this she hardens herself, making herself belief she actually likes her situation. But sometimes her armor cracks and you can see that she doesn't like herself very much anymore...but if the other characters dare mention this to her, she lashes out at them, again protecting herself from thinking to much about what has become of her... and so on.
I think by introducing a character like her and showing what war and slavery can do to a young girl, Erikson proves that he abhors these kinds of things - but they are still part of the world.

[Wu ammanas]

You really have to be patient while going through this series. In fact I believe that these series is so advanced in humanity and progressive than many other fantasy novels- talks alot of female Independence and power, same sex relationships and democracy. Despite the Malazan empire being ruled by an emperor, you find concepts like protection of ways of life of minorities, gender equity and promotion by merit etc.
I think what you may struggle with is the fact that Steven and Ian never worried about concepts of right or wrong, they just allowed the story to move along while presenting the human ways or culture as how we humans may be. Many people in the western world may find somethings like this strange but when you live in a third world countries like mine, you really recognise that the series rally portrays the struggles of day to day life. One concept I believe is alive throughout the novel is the concept of strategic intelligence. The guys stayed true to this throughout the series. This may be hard for you to accept but even good doesn't win over evil by sheer will, it takes intelligence and resources to win. I must confess, this is by far my best fantasy novels.

 Mako2401, on 29 May 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

I read GotM and night of Knives before this book, but suddenly, this book erupts in violence, especially violence and rape of women, including young girls, all sorts of descriptions of gruesome deaths and overall Mel Gibson level of violence porn . Another thing I noticed is this enormous amount of nihilism. After the first book, where we had (relatively) good guys and bad guys, here everyone is either a cynic or a nihilist. Not to mention some disgusting characters like Felisin (I'm supposed to care about her?) , or an Empire that makes no sense (still have no idea how this Empire even exists with this kind of terrible organization.) If the book series is as violent and nihilistic as it is in this book, then I'll reconsider binging this series and take a break between this and the next book .

[Keysi]

What I had to do on my first read, was at the end of some, nay most, books, was take a wee break to mentally recover from being so emotionally drained. I think it's a stroke of genius that Erikson was able to do that to me tbh.

[Kanese S's]

 Mako2401, on 29 May 2018 - 01:42 PM, said:

I read GotM and night of Knives before this book, but suddenly, this book erupts in violence, especially violence and rape of women, including young girls, all sorts of descriptions of gruesome deaths and overall Mel Gibson level of violence porn . Another thing I noticed is this enormous amount of nihilism. After the first book, where we had (relatively) good guys and bad guys, here everyone is either a cynic or a nihilist. Not to mention some disgusting characters like Felisin (I'm supposed to care about her?) , or an Empire that makes no sense (still have no idea how this Empire even exists with this kind of terrible organization.) If the book series is as violent and nihilistic as it is in this book, then I'll reconsider binging this series and take a break between this and the next book .

The series is actually anti-nihilist. But the authors also deliberately set out to upend fantasy tropes. The series is neither the black and white morality of say, The Lord Of The Rings where the conflicts are simple and it's easy to tell which side is good and which side is evil, and nothing complicates that view, nor is it the crapsack world cynicism of A Song Of Ice And Fire where yes the world sucks but it's presented as in many ways unchangeable.

While many of the characters are soldiers, and soldiers are in general presented in a sympathetic light, the series doesn't glorify war. War is presented as the horror that it is, filled with the atrocities that it actually is. The consequences of Othering one's opponents are presented in all their terrible detail. You recoil from it because you're supposed to. That's how you should feel about the actions perpetrated here.

If you think GotM and Night Of Knives and think that in those there are simple good guys and bad guys, I would suggest rereading.

In what way does the Malazan Empire make no sense? Why do you think its organization is terrible? Keep in mind, even with the magic, this is a premodern society. The Malazan Empire seems pretty well organized to me for the technology level of the setting.
Also why is Felisin disgusting? She's an angsty teenager caught up in political machinations she doesn't understand or have any control over, and to her eyes has been betrayed by the only family she had left.

[Alberto_Magnus]

I had a bit of that problem at first.
Then I realized that in creating a very complex, realistic and often mercyless world, Eriksson managed to let us appreciate the purest values more.
I mean, Duiker's train of thought throughout the Chain of Dogs is something so immensely emotional that it is hard to find elsewhere.

I agree with many of the statements about the whole series being about compassion, and the ability to feel despite the horrors life presents upon us.
I mean, how cool are the sappers? Hardened, leathery veterans who have the safety of the civilians as primary objective.
Or the incredible morality of people such as Coltaine and Bult...

In darkness light is much stronger than in the daytime.