[Omras Ghum]

OKay I'm just rereading the series and as I reached the HoC-part where Nok gives away so much info an the Emperor's old guard I would like to have them and their whereabouts listed all in one spot...

Hope this hasn't already been done and my stupid self couldn't find it...

Kellanved --> Shadowthrone
Dancer --> Cotillion
Nok --> still Admiral
Dujek --> still High Fist
Ameron --> ?? (my guess is he's Traveler)
Haol --> Nok says she's dead but I think I remember some other info on her...
Cartheron Crust --> the Captain who brought Kalam to Malaz in DG
Urko Crust --> Keeper (though I forgot why I'm so sure about this)
Hadra/Laseen --> at present Empress
Toc the Elder --> dead (?)
Dassem Ultor --> dead/ascendant (Dessembrae) - that's why I think he can't be Traveller although I see why many guess he is as he was Dal Honese and Traveller is too...
Tayschrenn --> still High mage
Whiskeyjack --> he's not exactly old guard, is he and we know what became of him...

Did I miss somebody??

Please correct me/fill the gaps if you feel like it.

And thank you...

[Iron Bars]

Hawl is dead now. She was with the marines on Drift Avalli and got killed there.

I'm not saying anything on the Traveller subject only this. Go read Night of Knives .

[Entropic_existence]

Of course didn't Cotillion pick up Hawl's body and take her to the Shadowrealm, I have a feeling she isn't completely gone from the story. Whiskeyjack was Old Guard too IIRCC.

Need to get my hands on Night of Knives one of these days...

[Arkmam]

Hadra/Laseen? When is this "Hadra" name mentioned?

[Omras Ghum]

Her name was Hadra but she changed it to Laseen when she made herself Empress...

By the way do we know anything about this Ameron-guy? I remember he was said to be Half-napanese - right?

I reread the passage and Nok doesn't mention Whiskeyjack when talking about the old guard - so is he?

[Cluracan AbSylvas]

Hadra?

My memory says Laseen's name prior to the fall of Dassem and burning out mages on Malaz Isle (GoTM) was Surly. Isn't "laseen" a Napan word meaning "throne master" or something close?

As to other Old Guard... Where does Stormy (ala Gesler, Stormy and Truth) fit in. I remember the phrase "Adjutant Stormy" being bantered about when Fiddler/Strings was meeting that group for the first time.

Would anyone else consider putting Duiker in this list? We know he was close to a LOT of the Old Guard, and that Toc was his tutor.

-- Clu

[Folken]

Traveller is also an immortal. So Ultor is a good bet for Traveller.

[vaiski]

Cluracan AbSylvas said:

Would anyone else consider putting Duiker in this list?

I would.

[Omras Ghum]

@ Cluracan: Sorry, in my german edition she's called Hadra but in the english one it's surly allright.

I think Stormy was adjutant for one of the crust brothers (i bet for cartheron) and gesler must have been at urkos side - it is mentioned somewhere that he only respects those in command who can hit him hard enough and that urko did hit him HARD indeed.

Duiker was just a soldier in one of the first malazan armies and kellanved picked him out to become historian...

@ grizzleshizzle: hawl entered the deadhouse with the others of the initial troop (before the napans joined) so her tan could well come from that experience - it is mentioned somewhere that the deadhouse granted all of them long life, disease-resistance and some other powers...

[Tenaka Khan]

Omras Ghum said:

I reread the passage and Nok doesn't mention Whiskeyjack when talking about the old guard - so is he?

I am not sure, but I thought that once someone said that Whiskejack was actually there - meaning in the Old Guard - pretty early. Something like 'there were always the three of them' (meaning Kellanved, Dancer and Ameron or Dassem methinks) and that WJ joined this illustrous circle as one of the first of the others from the Old Guard. Can't remember who said and where (I thought that it was Nok, but you reread the passage...).

Anyway, remember the opening scene in GotM? WJ faces Surly/Laseen and is not afraid of her or her station at all, Surly already being the head of the Claw. That does indicate that the two of them go waaay back to the Old Guard, methinks. Hope I'll find the passage I was talking about sometime... where was the passage with Nok again? would love to reread it and clear some things up (and am too lazy to search myself of sourse ).

I am really looking forward to learn more about Ameron, pretty mysterious fugure up to now...

[Omras Ghum]

as I'm only reading mbotf in german it's hard for me to tell you where in the book the nok-passage is - in my book (1.half of HoC) it's around page 335; but i expect this won't help you if you got an english version

it's pretty soon after the initial Karsa-only part of HoC

and the scene in gotm only shows that whiskeyjack was himself in a powerful position (or bluffing at the moment) THEN, it doesn't mean he was in the initial oldguard

when he got to his command (the group that became the bridgeburners) he was in my opinion one of the absolute losers whom nobody in the malazan military cared about so that he got all the other "losers" like Fiddler and the rest to chase the mages through the raraku - after that they became famous and he rose to the position of high fist in the military (which is when the scene in gotm happens, I think) so he was just ordinary military and rose through the ranks to be one of the finest commanders

but i can be wrong on this...

the fact that he also has long-life and is healthier than normal for his age comes from his raraku-experience

[Imperial Historian]

Whiskeyjack remembers surly as a tavern maid in smileys tavern on malaz isle, which certainly places there relationship as way back...

[Kimpo]

didn't Duiker run errands for the old guard as a young boy, when they were working out of the deadhouse.

[Tenaka Khan]

Thanks Omras and Hetan, I'll check it out

Edit: Darn, I've got the English trade paperback version... but as I am just rereading HoC I'll find it sooner or later

[Iron Bars]

You should really divide the 'old guard' from the 'family'. The old guard is everyone who served under Kellenved and the Family are the people who actually when with them into the Deadhouse. Wiskyjack was not with these people because he only became inportant in the empire after he was reforged in Raraku with the Bridgeburners. So he was a person of power who might have been with them from the beginning but he wasn't important enough back then.

[vaiski]

Hetan said:

Whiskeyjack was a very highly regarded soldier actually - read Night of Knives

Whats the timeframe here btw, from the point when WJ and the gang went to Raraku to the happenings at Y'Ghatan ?
I have to confess.. I've never even made an effort to know the specific dates and years and such, just roughly know which event goes before what.

[Blind]

I could be wrong, but I think it is said of Stormy and Gesler that they are old guard at some point. They seem to know Whiskeyjack rather well - Gesler complains that WJ was demoted before him.

[Omras Ghum]

the prologue of gotm (the scene with young paran and whiskeyjack) is dated as "the 96th year of the Malazan Empire) - does this mean all of the old guard and especially of the family are at that point around 120 - 140 years (!) old???

well the deadhouse sure keeps you young and fresh, hm?