Malazan Empire: Weinstein Celebrity Dead Pool - Malazan Empire

Jump to content

  • 49 Pages +
  • « First
  • 44
  • 45
  • 46
  • 47
  • 48
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Weinstein Celebrity Dead Pool

#901 User is offline   Morgoth 

  • executor emeritus
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Joined: 24-January 03
  • Location:the void

Posted 26 June 2020 - 07:09 AM

View Postpolishgenius, on 26 June 2020 - 06:21 AM, said:

Now Scott Lynch and Elizabeth Bear are accused.


And older accusations against China Mieville for doing something very similar to Warren Ellis but then lawyering up and threatening the person who brought it up publicly are surfacing.


What is this exactly though? Reading it sounds like Lynch had an affair with this woman, and when Bear found out she got furious. Back and forth marriage crisis and eventually Bear manages to get Lynch to cut contact? I don't get the grooming accusations to be honest. The situation she writes sounds uncomfortable, but also rather ordinary.
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
0

#902 User is offline   polishgenius 

  • Heart of Courage
  • Group: LHTEC
  • Posts: 4,927
  • Joined: 16-June 05

Posted 26 June 2020 - 08:25 AM

View PostMorgoth, on 26 June 2020 - 07:09 AM, said:

What is this exactly though? Reading it sounds like Lynch had an affair with this woman, and when Bear found out she got furious. Back and forth marriage crisis and eventually Bear manages to get Lynch to cut contact? I don't get the grooming accusations to be honest. The situation she writes sounds uncomfortable, but also rather ordinary.


Grooming is a pretty strong word but if someone you have influence over doesn't want a relationship but you keep pressuring them into it until they accept it, that's not okay. And if Lynch was playing it as a 'she'll accept our open marriage' and pressuring Bear to accept it that's not okay either, and neither, despite her understandable hurt, are Bear's attempts if that's true to blacklist Rowland.

Which isn't to say that Rowland isn't painting her own decisions out of the story and their response will assuredly paint a different light but misbalance of power or influence and hero worship does funny things to a brain.
I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you.
0

#903 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

  • Mortal Sword
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1,082
  • Joined: 28-March 13
  • Location:Deepest Darkest Yorkshire

Posted 26 June 2020 - 09:32 AM

Agreed - I think it's the imbalance of power in the Scott Lynch scenario (as written) that makes it disturbing. Potential vulnerability, hero worship... it doesn't excuse bad decision making completely but definitely puts up strong mitigation.

Lynch has posted on Twitter that he considers some of it heavily edited and other bits downright lies and defamation, and will "respond in more detail as soon as I can".
- Wyrd biū ful arśd -
0

#904 User is offline   polishgenius 

  • Heart of Courage
  • Group: LHTEC
  • Posts: 4,927
  • Joined: 16-June 05

Posted 26 June 2020 - 09:46 AM

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 26 June 2020 - 09:32 AM, said:

Agreed - I think it's the imbalance of power in the Scott Lynch scenario (as written) that makes it disturbing. Potential vulnerability, hero worship... it doesn't excuse bad decision making completely but definitely puts up strong mitigation.

Lynch has posted on Twitter that he considers some of it heavily edited and other bits downright lies and defamation, and will "respond in more detail as soon as I can".



Bear's response (still ongoing)

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 26 June 2020 - 09:47 AM

I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you.
0

#905 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

  • Mortal Sword
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1,082
  • Joined: 28-March 13
  • Location:Deepest Darkest Yorkshire

Posted 26 June 2020 - 10:20 AM

One of the dangers with abuse narratives is projection - where the accused will "project" on the accusor and cast all their behaviour onto them.

The problem when you have two people accusing each other of abuse is knowing which one is the victim and which one is doing the projecting. And both will invariably have people ready to be called on to state that they know them really well and they'd never do such a thing.

It is one of the many ways in which abusers re-traumatise their victims. And it is so, so hard to unpick.
- Wyrd biū ful arśd -
0

#906 User is offline   QuickTidal 

  • General Kenobi
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 18,013
  • Joined: 05-November 05
  • Location:Winden
  • Interests:Sith Beatdowns

Posted 26 June 2020 - 10:33 AM

Rowland does seem to have receipts (even if she didnít post them all) , so I would expect she has receipts of Lynch coaxing her and not the other way round?

Iím much more willing to give Rowland the benefit of the doubt here simply because of the power differential, and what would Rowland have to gain by fabricating parts of it?

Also, is it possible that Bear is unaware of the extent of what Lynch might have said to Rowland? Like Bear sounds like she really believes the home wrecker narrative, and as such maybe Lynch was hiding stuff.

I agree with PG that grooming is a strong word for what went on here...but I donít know if there is another word that fits. This is similar to Ellis in that it was older people and a young woman in her 20ís. Grooming may not be the right word, but whatever it is, itís squicky to me.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
0

#907 User is offline   QuickTidal 

  • General Kenobi
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 18,013
  • Joined: 05-November 05
  • Location:Winden
  • Interests:Sith Beatdowns

Posted 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM

Well this shit is blowing wide open..,

Here’s a list...and what do you know, there’s Wendig.


This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 June 2020 - 10:46 AM

"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
0

#908 User is offline   Aptorian 

  • How you doin?
  • Group: The Wheelchairs of War
  • Posts: 23,194
  • Joined: 22-May 06

Posted 26 June 2020 - 11:11 AM

View PostQuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well this shit is blowing wide open..,

Hereís a list...and what do you know, thereís Wendig.




Who the hell just posts a list of, I assume, accusations about public figures. Then doesn't back it up with any evidence or stories "because identifiers". Then writes "more to follow"?

Like I get that the fantasy/sci-fi culture is doing summer closet cleaning but come on.
1

#909 User is offline   polishgenius 

  • Heart of Courage
  • Group: LHTEC
  • Posts: 4,927
  • Joined: 16-June 05

Posted 26 June 2020 - 11:12 AM

View PostQuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well this shit is blowing wide open..,

Hereís a list...and what do you know, thereís Wendig.





I don't particularly like this one because while I appreciate that Ann is trying to protect people, she's grouped a wide range of very, very different behaviours (some of them are actual crimes, some are basically being an asshole) into one and not given any indication of who is guilty of what. So now you've got people running off going 'I always knew GRRM did some sex crimes' when there's absolutely no indication that he's even been accused of such.

Quote

Also, is it possible that Bear is unaware of the extent of what Lynch might have said to Rowland? Like Bear sounds like she really believes the home wrecker narrative, and as such maybe Lynch was hiding stuff.


I think it's perfectly possible. It's difficult to say which of the pair is telling the truth, what Bear knew, what she wasn't told, what she willfully pretended not to know for her marriage, and what she knows but isn't willing to publicly air because she still loves her husband, but I can't think of any combination of the two versions of events we've gotten so far that don't paint Lynch as, at the very least, an arsehole.
I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you.
0

#910 User is offline   QuickTidal 

  • General Kenobi
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 18,013
  • Joined: 05-November 05
  • Location:Winden
  • Interests:Sith Beatdowns

Posted 26 June 2020 - 11:24 AM

View Postpolishgenius, on 26 June 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well this shit is blowing wide open..,

Hereís a list...and what do you know, thereís Wendig.





I don't particularly like this one because while I appreciate that Ann is trying to protect people, she's grouped a wide range of very, very different behaviours (some of them are actual crimes, some are basically being an asshole) into one and not given any indication of who is guilty of what. So now you've got people running off going 'I always knew GRRM did some sex crimes' when there's absolutely no indication that he's even been accused of such.


For Ringo and Brust it sounds like it was a fairly open secret...to the extent that Brust has been disinvited to certain cons...as for GRRM this is not the first or even the second time I've heard skeevy Con behaviour associated with him. And someone further down the thread states what she heard Wendig did/behaved.

View Postpolishgenius, on 26 June 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Also, is it possible that Bear is unaware of the extent of what Lynch might have said to Rowland? Like Bear sounds like she really believes the home wrecker narrative, and as such maybe Lynch was hiding stuff.


I think it's perfectly possible. It's difficult to say which of the pair is telling the truth, what Bear knew, what she wasn't told, what she willfully pretended not to know for her marriage, and what she knows but isn't willing to publicly air because she still loves her husband, but I can't think of any combination of the two versions of events we've gotten so far that don't paint Lynch as, at the very least, an arsehole.


Yes, I agree. Although, I also don't think it excuses Bear trying to blacklist a young author like it sounds like she has.

Oh, and random non-associated things Iearned from all this is that Jim Butcher is a COVID-denier/Lockdown disbeliever/maybe racist?....so that's annoying to have learned.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
0

#911 User is offline   Morgoth 

  • executor emeritus
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Joined: 24-January 03
  • Location:the void

Posted 26 June 2020 - 12:01 PM

We dont know that Bear tried to blacklist anyone though. And from her description of events, and a description she claims can be corroborated by others, this whole situation looks very different.

I think we should be careful with the pitchforks here, as pointed out above, much of this doesn't really look like abuse. Just people being people making very people-like mistakes.

edit: At least one other author, C.L. Polk, responded to Bear in support of her description of events, so there's that.

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 26 June 2020 - 12:03 PM

Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
1

#912 User is offline   QuickTidal 

  • General Kenobi
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 18,013
  • Joined: 05-November 05
  • Location:Winden
  • Interests:Sith Beatdowns

Posted 26 June 2020 - 12:10 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 26 June 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:

We dont know that Bear tried to blacklist anyone though. And from her description of events, and a description she claims can be corroborated by others, this whole situation looks very different.

I think we should be careful with the pitchforks here, as pointed out above, much of this doesn't really look like abuse. Just people being people making very people-like mistakes.


We should remember that the whole racefail thing back in like 2009 was kicked off by Bear and angry fans under her purview...and it took her like a decade to apologize for her part...so you know what? I can honestly pretty easily buy that she's been trying to blacklist Rowland.

I'm happy to wait for more info or receipts, but at the very least it sounds like Lynch was skeevy, and inappropriate...and at worst an adulterer.

And it sounds like Rowland has at least 4 people willing to corroborate? I would expect with the pushback from both Lynch and Bear, for that to occur/come out...at which point were will know more.

Anyways, it's not really pitchforks, we are just navigating all these people and what they may or may not have done.

View PostMorgoth, on 26 June 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:

edit: At least one other author, C.L. Polk, responded to Bear in support of her description of events, so there's that.


I mean, the idea that a person won't have friends wiling to stand up for them proves nothing to me without receipts. If Bear IS holding a grudge, then 100% she would have lined up people to speak out on Rowland today. I just hope Rowland's corroborators come out too. We will see.

And to add a little personal flavour to this, the whole "wife blames the vixen home wrecker for their husband straying" is such a trope that my mother felt victim to it..by even now, 30 years after they split, calling my step-mother "That bitch". The wife in the broken relationship will absolutely pull shit on the other woman over their husband because to accept the husband is the one mainly at fault is emotionally way too hard...so they shove every bit of blame on the other woman instead.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 June 2020 - 12:16 PM

"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
0

#913 User is offline   QuickTidal 

  • General Kenobi
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 18,013
  • Joined: 05-November 05
  • Location:Winden
  • Interests:Sith Beatdowns

Posted 26 June 2020 - 12:35 PM

Saw this on reddit. It bears noting here.

"Well it's not a crime" is a really high bar for what ought to be sanctionable behaviour. This kind of shit should not be acceptable. The overcorrections we see in the twitter mobs are always concerning to me, but if the powers that be in a given industry aren't willing to take action (which their historical inaction shows), what other choice is there for achieving positive change? It's ultimately a choice between a perhaps unfairly harsh destruction of a successful career versus an unknown number of careers smothered in the cradle.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
0

#914 User is offline   Whisperzzzzzzz 

  • Reaper's Fail
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 2,188
  • Joined: 10-May 10
  • Location:Westchester, NY

Posted 26 June 2020 - 12:40 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 11:24 AM, said:

View Postpolishgenius, on 26 June 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Well this shit is blowing wide open..,

Hereís a list...and what do you know, thereís Wendig.





I don't particularly like this one because while I appreciate that Ann is trying to protect people, she's grouped a wide range of very, very different behaviours (some of them are actual crimes, some are basically being an asshole) into one and not given any indication of who is guilty of what. So now you've got people running off going 'I always knew GRRM did some sex crimes' when there's absolutely no indication that he's even been accused of such.


For Ringo and Brust it sounds like it was a fairly open secret...to the extent that Brust has been disinvited to certain cons...as for GRRM this is not the first or even the second time I've heard skeevy Con behaviour associated with him. And someone further down the thread states what she heard Wendig did/behaved.

View Postpolishgenius, on 26 June 2020 - 11:12 AM, said:

View PostQuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 10:45 AM, said:

Also, is it possible that Bear is unaware of the extent of what Lynch might have said to Rowland? Like Bear sounds like she really believes the home wrecker narrative, and as such maybe Lynch was hiding stuff.


I think it's perfectly possible. It's difficult to say which of the pair is telling the truth, what Bear knew, what she wasn't told, what she willfully pretended not to know for her marriage, and what she knows but isn't willing to publicly air because she still loves her husband, but I can't think of any combination of the two versions of events we've gotten so far that don't paint Lynch as, at the very least, an arsehole.


Yes, I agree. Although, I also don't think it excuses Bear trying to blacklist a young author like it sounds like she has.

Oh, and random non-associated things Iearned from all this is that Jim Butcher is a COVID-denier/Lockdown disbeliever/maybe racist?....so that's annoying to have learned.



What are the accusations against Brust? Really disappointed to hear this.
0

#915 User is offline   Tsundoku 

  • Make the Empire Great Again
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 3,413
  • Joined: 06-January 03
  • Location:Maison de merde

Posted 26 June 2020 - 12:47 PM

Well if any at least semi-famous person ever needed a reason to never, ever have anything to do with their fans (or colleagues it seems) either in person or over teh webz ...

It's just safer to stay home, write your books and stay the fuck away from everyone. Less susceptible to COVID etc as well. :p

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 26 June 2020 - 12:48 PM

"Fortune favors the bold, though statistics favor the cautious." - Indomitable Courteous (Icy) Fist, The Palace Job - Patrick Weekes

"Well well well ... if it ain't The Invisible C**t." - Billy Butcher, The Boys

"I have strong views about not tempting providence and, as a wise man once said, the difference between luck and a wheelbarrow is, luck doesnít work if you push it." - Colonel Orhan, Sixteen Ways to Defend a Walled City - KJ Parker
1

#916 User is offline   Morgoth 

  • executor emeritus
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 10,385
  • Joined: 24-January 03
  • Location:the void

Posted 26 June 2020 - 12:51 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 12:10 PM, said:

View PostMorgoth, on 26 June 2020 - 12:01 PM, said:

edit: At least one other author, C.L. Polk, responded to Bear in support of her description of events, so there's that.


I mean, the idea that a person won't have friends wiling to stand up for them proves nothing to me without receipts. If Bear IS holding a grudge, then 100% she would have lined up people to speak out on Rowland today. I just hope Rowland's corroborators come out too. We will see.

And to add a little personal flavour to this, the whole "wife blames the vixen home wrecker for their husband straying" is such a trope that my mother felt victim to it..by even now, 30 years after they split, calling my step-mother "That bitch". The wife in the broken relationship will absolutely pull shit on the other woman over their husband because to accept the husband is the one mainly at fault is emotionally way too hard...so they shove every bit of blame on the other woman instead.


That seems overly conspiratorial I'd say. Bear had a whole gaggle of friends prepped and ready in case Rowland said something years after the fact? Or are you thinking she spendt the last 12 or so hours calling everyone getting them to agree on a shared narrative?

The original post from Rowland did not paint a picture of abuse to me, and that was from her own description of events. Now we have Bears side, which paints a very different picture, and which has been corroborated by three people so far from what I can see, including a former friend of Rowland.

Sure, Lynch doesn't come out of this smelling of roses. I am assuming there was an affair, and that's sad, but also entirely a private matter. Affairs happen, it is cruel and mean and rarely deserving of the public spotlight.
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
1

#917 User is offline   Whisperzzzzzzz 

  • Reaper's Fail
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 2,188
  • Joined: 10-May 10
  • Location:Westchester, NY

Posted 26 June 2020 - 12:55 PM

@jeffvandermeer/status/1276345291738923009

Me right now

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 26 June 2020 - 12:55 PM

0

#918 User is offline   QuickTidal 

  • General Kenobi
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 18,013
  • Joined: 05-November 05
  • Location:Winden
  • Interests:Sith Beatdowns

Posted 26 June 2020 - 01:02 PM

View PostMorgoth, on 26 June 2020 - 12:51 PM, said:


That seems overly conspiratorial I'd say. Bear had a whole gaggle of friends prepped and ready in case Rowland said something years after the fact? Or are you thinking she spendt the last 12 or so hours calling everyone getting them to agree on a shared narrative?


This is the type of stuff that happened all the time in high school, and is very common. So yes? Rowland even indicates that this seemingly what she was expecting to occur. And honestly, having a parent who raged about this stuff around her own marriage breaking down...my mom is one of the most vindictive people I know. I love her, but when it comes to my dad and stepmom, she was capable of some heinous shit in the name of being/feeling slighted by my dad...all aimed at my stepmom and not my dad.

View PostMorgoth, on 26 June 2020 - 12:51 PM, said:

The original post from Rowland did not paint a picture of abuse to me, and that was from her own description of events. Now we have Bears side, which paints a very different picture, and which has been corroborated by three people so far from what I can see, including a former friend of Rowland.


Again, I'm weighing this against what happened with Bear during racefail, because it's what I immediately thought of. I don't have similar things to lay against Rowland...but as it stands right now, I'm more willing to believe Rowland...if that turns out to not be the case, I'll happily change my tune. But I just keep asking myself why a young author would lie about this stuff...what on earth would she have to gain? Would she not stand to lose WAY more by being vocal about it?

View PostMorgoth, on 26 June 2020 - 12:51 PM, said:

Sure, Lynch doesn't come out of this smelling of roses. I am assuming there was an affair, and that's sad, but also entirely a private matter. Affairs happen, it is cruel and mean and rarely deserving of the public spotlight.


The problem arises from the fact that Bear supposedly knew about the relationship and let it occur. That's where I stumble here.

And yeah, I could be totally wrong, but that's how I'm seeing it right now.
"When the last tree has fallen, and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money, oh no." ~Aurora
0

#919 User is offline   Tsundoku 

  • Make the Empire Great Again
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 3,413
  • Joined: 06-January 03
  • Location:Maison de merde

Posted 26 June 2020 - 01:12 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 26 June 2020 - 01:02 PM, said:

But I just keep asking myself why a young author would lie about this stuff...what on earth would she have to gain? Would she not stand to lose WAY more by being vocal about it?


Notoriety/raised profile
Victimhood/sympathy - which 10 years ago meant not a whole lot, but these days it's almost a form of status and currency ... it's bizarre.
The old "climbing the ladder by knifing those above you" which has long been established in almost all hierarchies since the dawn of time.
Revenge - hell hath no fury after all ...
EDIT: there's less of a downside these days for a woman speaking out like there used to be as well. Whatever industry she was in would be seriously old-fashioned and almost suicidal to blacklist her.
Hell, some might even try to use her to raise their own profiles, like a bunch of companies have been doing recently.

And that's just off the top of the head.

The last 5 years has seen a real rise in the twitter demagogues using mobs to achieve their own ends like was done back in the old days. It builds its own momentum even.
I'm sure if there aren't already there will be some very interesting studies done of the positives and negatives of the social media groupthink et al ... from the Arab Spring right through to #metoo and so on and so forth.
I always remember that old maxim though about the mob being fickle. :p

This post has been edited by Tsundoku: 26 June 2020 - 01:25 PM

"Fortune favors the bold, though statistics favor the cautious." - Indomitable Courteous (Icy) Fist, The Palace Job - Patrick Weekes

"Well well well ... if it ain't The Invisible C**t." - Billy Butcher, The Boys

"I have strong views about not tempting providence and, as a wise man once said, the difference between luck and a wheelbarrow is, luck doesnít work if you push it." - Colonel Orhan, Sixteen Ways to Defend a Walled City - KJ Parker
0

#920 User is offline   Whisperzzzzzzz 

  • Reaper's Fail
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 2,188
  • Joined: 10-May 10
  • Location:Westchester, NY

Posted 26 June 2020 - 01:18 PM

But wait, what's the deal with Mieville?
0

Share this topic:


  • 49 Pages +
  • « First
  • 44
  • 45
  • 46
  • 47
  • 48
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

2 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users