[Gorefest]

So I guess we'll find out today whether Catalunia has or has not in fact declared independence. Tensions are running high.

I sure hope this whole thing won't turn into a second Yugoslavia. That was a massively popular tourist destination where everyone thought that surely it couldn't escalate too badly....

[Gust Hubb]

I wish countries could just let go. I would totally be for Texas and California ceding, and then I would move to the latter.

[Gorefest]

Spain has a big problem though in that Catalunia is a big economic engine for the country. Spain already is one of the weakest economies in Europe and without Catalunia they would nosedive. So magnanimity is not really an option.

[Gust Hubb]

Ah, good to know. I really know little background on that situation.

[Abyss]

Gust Hubb, on 16 October 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

I wish countries could just let go. I would totally be for Texas and California ceding, and then I would move to the latter.

Counterpoint: Quebec.

[Morgoth]

There's also the issue the independence movement does not have actual majority support. Polls as early as this spring and summer gave the no side a solid margin. It was feared though, or so the Economist told me, that there would be low levels of turnout, which would favour the yes side. Something the yes side cynically gambled on. Whether any of that is true is impossible to tell now after the shameful behaviour of the Spanish state.

[Gust Hubb]

Abyss, on 16 October 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 16 October 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

I wish countries could just let go. I would totally be for Texas and California ceding, and then I would move to the latter.

Counterpoint: Quebec.

Why wouldn't Canada want to let that place go? It is very pretentious in my experiences working from the food industry/labelling side of things.

[Gust Hubb]

....and unleash enfilade on stupid american

[QuickTidal]

Gust Hubb, on 16 October 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

Abyss, on 16 October 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 16 October 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

I wish countries could just let go. I would totally be for Texas and California ceding, and then I would move to the latter.

Counterpoint: Quebec.

Why wouldn't Canada want to let that place go? It is very pretentious in my experiences working from the food industry/labelling side of things.

A few reasons really, and they've always been the same.

A. It splits our country in (not in half, but close to half) geographically. That is not something anyone relishes.
B. Though it may not look it, they host about 1/4 of our entire population. As such, at the time they first wanted to split in the 90's, that was about 170billion in G&S lost as a country. (That number is probably much higher today)
C. It's one of the biggest provinces land-mass wise both from a population standpoint, and from a geography one.

I'm sure there are other more in depth reasons but these are the ones I've always heard since I was a teenager.

And yeah, it's a pain in the butt to have everything be bilingual...but it's really a part of our culture as a country, and to lose that would be pretty sad.

In the grand scheme, they are a part of us, warts and all.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 16 October 2017 - 02:51 PM

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 16 October 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 16 October 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

Abyss, on 16 October 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

Gust Hubb, on 16 October 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

I wish countries could just let go. I would totally be for Texas and California ceding, and then I would move to the latter.

Counterpoint: Quebec.

Why wouldn't Canada want to let that place go? It is very pretentious in my experiences working from the food industry/labelling side of things.

A few reasons really, and they've always been the same.

A. It splits our country in (not in half, but close to half) geographically. That is not something anyone relishes.
B. Though it may not look it, they host about 1/4 of our entire population. As such, at the time they first wanted to split in the 90's, that was about 170billion in G&S lost as a country. (That number is probably much higher today)
C. It's one of the biggest provinces land-mass wise both from a population standpoint, and from a geography one.

I'm sure there are other more in depth reasons but these are the ones I've always heard since I was a teenager.

And yeah, it's a pain in the butt to have everything be bilingual...but it's really a part of our culture as a country, and to lose that would be pretty sad.

In the grand scheme, they are a part of us, warts and all.

Also, the logistics of that separation would almost certainly equal fiscal disaster, and a large chunk of it - arguably the most modern, opulated and profitable - went all the way to the Supreme Court last time to reserve its right to stay in Canada if Quebec fucked off.

Also, poutine is a national treasure and they would want it all for themselves.

[Adhara]

I was wondering when my country's troubles would reach this forum...

[Mentalist]

I have relatives living a bit north of Barcelona, who finally go their Spanish citizenship this year (including my youngest cousin, who was born in Spain), so I'm feeling a bit of personal stake in this.

My understanding of the situation is that it's not that grim, though. Supposedly biggest Catalan businesses started a massive egress out of Catalonia, re-registering in mainland Spain (kind of how most of the financial sector fled Montreal with the Quebec referenda, turning Toronto into an economy powerhouse it is). Which should really cool any really hot independence-minded heads.

[Tiste Simeon]

Mentalist, on 17 October 2017 - 03:08 AM, said:

I have relatives living a bit north of Barcelona, who finally go their Spanish citizenship this year (including my youngest cousin, who was born in Spain), so I'm feeling a bit of personal stake in this.

My understanding of the situation is that it's not that grim, though. Supposedly biggest Catalan businesses started a massive egress out of Catalonia, re-registering in mainland Spain (kind of how most of the financial sector fled Montreal with the Quebec referenda, turning Toronto into an economy powerhouse it is). Which should really cool any really hot independence-minded heads.

That's not working in Britain though. Brexiters are just doubling down and ignoring all the signs that this is such a dumb idea. This country is going to be an impoverished isolated state and they don't seem to care...

[Adhara]

Cataluña has just declared independence.

[QuickTidal]

Morgan Lefay, on 27 October 2017 - 01:29 PM, said:

Cataluña has just declared independence.

This is great for Catalonians...but I fear what the reprisal from Spain will be.

EDIT: At least the world is watching...so hopefully whatever it is won't be violent.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 27 October 2017 - 01:43 PM

[Gorefest]

Oh dear...

[Adhara]

This is not that great for Catalonians, QT. Half of them want to stay in Spain. And for the rest of Spaniards it may be a very bad new. Economical recession sure,and even the risk of a civil war is in the air.
And I say that even I am a person who supports freedom to belong to a country or depart from it, because I believe nation is not a sacred thing, but a matter of convenience.

This post has been edited by Morgan Lefay: 27 October 2017 - 03:15 PM

[QuickTidal]

Morgan Lefay, on 27 October 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

This is not that great for Catalonians, QT. Half of them want to stay in Spain. And for the rest of Spaniards it may be a very bad new. Economical recession sure,and even the risk of a civil war is in the air.
And I say that even I am a person who supports freedom to belong to a country or depart from it, because I believe nation is not a sacred thing, but a matter of convenience.

Sorry, it's just that everyone I know from the area (we have a few family friends in and around Barcelona) are Catalonians who wanted independence. I can only go off what they expressed to us. I'm sure they don't speak for everyone obviously, but it's where my knowledge on the subject came from.

Also, of those that voted wasn't it like 90% in favour in independence?

For the record, I think Scotland should be independent as well...but then that's because I have so many Scottish relatives.

[Gorefest]

QuickTidal, on 27 October 2017 - 03:34 PM, said:

Also, of those that voted wasn't it like 90% in favour in independence?

That referendum was totally meaningless though. The Spanish government had already announced beforehand that it was unlawful and that they might impose sanctions, so the vast majority of people who are pro-Spain and want to remain will have stayed at home because that is what the government told them to do. So obviously the vast majority of the (I believe) 43% or so of the voting public who did turn out to vote will be pro-independence. It's almost more amazing that it was not 100% pro-independence.

Scotland is a different situation, because that referendum was lawful and condoned by the British government, so both pro- and anti-independence voters could go out and vote in safety and with confidence that the result would be valid. And considering that in these kinds of votes the status quo vote will always be at a disadvantage (i.e. why turn out to vote if you are not motivated to change the existing situation), the majority for remaining with the UK can be considered a fair reflection of that time (I would not advise checking again now after the Brexit vote, because I'm sure it would be a very different story).

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 27 October 2017 - 03:44 PM

[QuickTidal]

Ah, okay, that makes sense.