[Sir.Bumpaclottus]

Only read to after the Ygatan battle.

Am i the only one who dislikes Tavore with a passion?

She basically a nobleborn that bought herself a highranking posistion with the blood of her family, and fucking over her fellow nobleborn.

The she goes on to commanding a army, making Gamet a fist since she know him rather than choosing someone on merit.
Than she breaks with the malazan military traditions that Daseem created, which is said many times are a big reason for why malazan armies are so good.

Then she march on Korbolo.. and she just do excactly what korbolo wants her to.. march straight for him exactly where he wants her to be.. in a posistion that heavily favour Korbolo and the apocalypse armie.. which also outnumber the malazan? I mean, what if they hadnt fought against themselces and the ghost army hadmt appeared?

Than after that. At Ygatan, she decides to storm a city in the middle of the night.
A city they dont know.. with tons of streets, alleys, buildings etc.. like a maze.. where fanatics can pop up and dissapear again anywhere anytime.

To me, everything she does seems like stupid ideas..

And also, Laseen is trying to change the fact that incompetent nobleborn buys themselves power and positions within the military.. So she lets a nobleborn buy herself a position and a army so she can cull the other nobleborn?

Shes part of the rot that has seeped into the malazan empire after Laseen took over.
Along with people such as Pormqual.

MAKE MALAZAN GREAT AGAGAIN!

[Aptorian]

I think she is written to be dislikeable. However, everything we hear about her and see her do, support the idea that she does what she does because she's thinking 5 moves ahead. Tavore is not a natural born leader, she's not hot iron. She is however, from what we hear, one of the brightest military minds the empire has seen. And she is advised by... well, T'amber seems like a special consort doesn't she?

You've got to remember that we never see the world through her eyes or get to listen to her POV in the books. You always get the interpretation of her intentions from a secondary source. Tavore is young and she lacks practical experience at the beginning of the book. She's most likely also grieving over the fate of her family. She didn't get where she was through corruption or incompetence. She sacrificed her family, because she knew they were dead anyway. By giving up her parents she bought the political coin to send her sister to the mines, from which she could be extracted away from the Empires eyes.

Tavore might be many things but she is not a part of the rot of the empire. Quite the contrary. Read the ending of the book and you will know this.

[Sir.Bumpaclottus]

Seduce Goose, on 09 June 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

I think she is written to be dislikeable. However, everything we hear about her and see her do, support the idea that she does what she does because she's thinking 5 moves ahead. Tavore is not a natural born leader, she's not hot iron. She is however, from what we hear, one of the brightest military minds the empire has seen. And she is advised by... well, T'amber seems like a special consort doesn't she?

You've got to remember that we never see the world through her eyes or get to listen to her POV in the books. You always get the interpretation of her intentions from a secondary source. Tavore is young and she lacks practical experience at the beginning of the book. She's most likely also grieving over the fate of her family. She didn't get where she was through corruption or incompetence. She sacrificed her family, because she knew they were dead anyway. By giving up her parents she bought the political coin to send her sister to the mines, from which she could be extracted away from the Empires eyes.

Tavore might be many things but she is not a part of the rot of the empire. Quite the contrary. Read the ending of the book and you will know this.

Yeah, we keep hearing that she has a great military mind. But her actions says otherwise. Everything she has done so far has been bad decisions.

And yeah, your right, shes easy to dislike. And i know shes not all bad.

But i still means shes part of the problem.
The only relevant experince she had to command a army is playing with toy soldiers. And being from a wealthy home probably a good education.

Even if she proves herself later, and she might do that. Her being given that rank was not based on any proven merit or skill.

And that was a thing that used to make the empire great.. they didnt give comnand to people based on for example, what your last name is, how much money you got or who you know. But based on skill and merit, so anyone can rise in the ranks.

[Gorefest]

So much RAFO.

[Sir.Bumpaclottus]

Gorefest, on 09 June 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

So much RAFO.

Really? Does there cone some explanation on why it was clever to do exactly as korbolo wanted and posistion herself where he wanted?

Or some reason for rushing a foreign unkown city, blind in the night?

Cause if not shes still a incompetent military commander, at least at this point.

[Aptorian]

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 09 June 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

And that was a thing that used to make the empire great.. they didnt give comnand to people based on for example, what your last name is, how much money you got or who you know. But based on skill and merit, so anyone can rise in the ranks.

I think you are adopting the stance of a commoner in the Malazan Empire who's heard too many rumors about the empress and the ruling class.

Laseen isn't dumb, she's Old Guard/Family. Her picking a young Tavore is not nepotism or political manoeuvring. The Tavore name is practically dead by the beginning of Deadhouse Gates, which means she is unlikely to have ties that could turn her aginst the empress.

She picked Tavore because, at least academically/theoretically, she's the best new hope for the empire. This isn't Game of Thrones. Lasseen didn't just pick Tavore as her Adjunct (The most powerful title in the empire) to look good or appease another House. It might be a desperate move but at least from what we understand, the empress trusts in Tavore.

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 09 June 2017 - 05:59 PM, said:

Gorefest, on 09 June 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

So much RAFO.

Really? Does there cone some explanation on why it was clever to do exactly as korbolo wanted and posistion herself where he wanted?

Or some reason for rushing a foreign unkown city, blind in the night?

Cause if not shes still a incompetent military commander, at least at this point.

It's been too long since I read BH to comment on the details, but Siegecraft 101 says that if you breach the enemies wall, you capitalize on that sudden vulnerability. The Marines are trained for close quarters dirty fighting. Urban warfare is shitty but it's what they are meant to do.

Who the hell plans on your enemy stock piling barrels full of fire through out their own city?

This post has been edited by Seduce Goose: 09 June 2017 - 06:07 PM

[Abyss]

I'll confine my reply to where you're at in TB...

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 09 June 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

Only read to after the Ygatan battle.

Am i the only one who dislikes Tavore with a passion?

Nope. But that's sort of a superficial reaction given what elese she has going on.

Quote

She basically a nobleborn that bought herself a highranking posistion with the blood of her family, and fucking over her fellow nobleborn.

Just based on DG and HoC, you would know that...

- the Paran family was severely at risk because of the father's debts and Ganoes' apparent betrayal;
- the nobleborn generally were fairly awful and that the Paran family had minimal ties to such;
- Tavore acted to save her family from utter ruin, and yes she sent her own sister into chains, but she also arranged a Talon assassin, more or less the equivalent of a revolutionary against Laseen's rule, to guard and extract her;

...so her situation isnt nearly what you're describing.

Quote

The she goes on to commanding a army, making Gamet a fist since she know him rather than choosing someone on merit.

Its clear in HoC that she does this because he's a decorated veteran and she needed at least one fist serving her out of loyalty instead of orders.

Quote

Than she breaks with the malazan military traditions that Daseem created, which is said many times are a big reason for why malazan armies are so good.

Not entirely. The squad structure, and sending the marines in first in Yghatan, are vintage Dassem.

Quote

Then she march on Korbolo.. and she just do excactly what korbolo wants her to.. march straight for him exactly where he wants her to be.. in a posistion that heavily favour Korbolo and the apocalypse armie.. which also outnumber the malazan? I mean, what if they hadnt fought against themselces and the ghost army hadmt appeared?

It's clear at the end of HoC that she was expecting Raraku to strike at the Whirlwind. if it hadn't, then her army would have fought at a disadvantage, but not a sure defeat. She was prepared to risk it, which is sort of the point of a military commander.

Quote

Than after that. At Ygatan, she decides to storm a city in the middle of the night.
A city they dont know.. with tons of streets, alleys, buildings etc.. like a maze.. where fanatics can pop up and dissapear again anywhere anytime.

This was explained in the book. They did not have time for an extended siege, and didn't want to give the Whirlwind more time to settle in.

Quote

To me, everything she does seems like stupid ideas..

Y'know, i hear you in the sense that a lot of these things didn't work out, but the reasons for them are right there in the book. I don't know whether you missed that or disagree with it, but either way it's not like SE wrote Tavore sitting there blissfully making stupid decisions for no reason. She wasn't Pormqual.

Quote

And also, Laseen is trying to change the fact that incompetent nobleborn buys themselves power and positions within the military.. So she lets a nobleborn buy herself a position and a army so she can cull the other nobleborn?

Shes part of the rot that has seeped into the malazan empire after Laseen took over.
Along with people such as Pormqual.

Per above, nope.

Quote

MAKE MALAZAN GREAT AGAGAIN!

You are in for SO MUCH fun as you keeping reading this series.

Maybe.

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 09 June 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

...
And that was a thing that used to make the empire great.. they didnt give comnand to people based on for example, what your last name is, how much money you got or who you know. But based on skill and merit, so anyone can rise in the ranks.

The thing is, it's clear at this point in the story that she does have skill and merit. How much and whether it pays off is part of the story.

[Sir.Bumpaclottus]

Seduce Goose, on 09 June 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 09 June 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

And that was a thing that used to make the empire great.. they didnt give comnand to people based on for example, what your last name is, how much money you got or who you know. But based on skill and merit, so anyone can rise in the ranks.

I think you are adopting the stance of a commoner in the Malazan Empire who's heard too many rumors about the empress and the ruling class.

Laseen isn't dumb, she's Old Guard/Family. Her picking a young Tavore is not nepotism or political manoeuvring. The Tavore name is practically dead by the beginning of Deadhouse Gates, which means she is unlikely to have ties that could turn her aginst the empress.

She picked Tavore because, at least academically/theoretically, she's the best new hope for the empire. This isn't Game of Thrones. Lasseen didn't just pick Tavore as her Adjunct (The most powerful title in the empire) to look good or appease another House. It might be a desperate move but at least from what we understand, the empress trusts in Tavore.

That might be true. Since most of what we see and hear comes most often from the common soldier.

That would be pretty damned desperate tho, since in a thing like war and commanding theres a pretty big gap between theory and the actual thing. But anyways right now everything she does seems like mistakes and bad tactics. Even tho they have still pulled trough.


Yea, noway she coulda foreseen what leoman would do.. i just think fighting urban warfare in an unknow city in the dark doesnt seem smart.

This post has been edited by Sir.Bumpaclottus: 09 June 2017 - 06:13 PM

[Aptorian]

Abyss, on 09 June 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

Quote

MAKE MALAZAN GREAT AGAGAIN!

You are in for SO MUCH fun as you keeping reading this series.

Maybe.

Ho ho ho.

[Abyss]

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 09 June 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

.... i just think fighting urban warfare in an unknow city in the dark doesnt seem smart.

The reason was explained in the book.


Sitting around carrying on a siege with no supply lines, possible reinforcements, or support, on a hostile desert continent engaged in a rather spirited revolution, seems like a better idea?

[Sir.Bumpaclottus]

Abyss, on 09 June 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

I'll confine my reply to where you're at in TB...

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 09 June 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

Only read to after the Ygatan battle.

Am i the only one who dislikes Tavore with a passion?

Nope. But that's sort of a superficial reaction given what elese she has going on.

Quote

She basically a nobleborn that bought herself a highranking posistion with the blood of her family, and fucking over her fellow nobleborn.

Just based on DG and HoC, you would know that...

- the Paran family was severely at risk because of the father's debts and Ganoes' apparent betrayal;
- the nobleborn generally were fairly awful and that the Paran family had minimal ties to such;
- Tavore acted to save her family from utter ruin, and yes she sent her own sister into chains, but she also arranged a Talon assassin, more or less the equivalent of a revolutionary against Laseen's rule, to guard and extract her;

...so her situation isnt nearly what you're describing.

Quote

The she goes on to commanding a army, making Gamet a fist since she know him rather than choosing someone on merit.

Its clear in HoC that she does this because he's a decorated veteran and she needed at least one fist serving her out of loyalty instead of orders.

Quote

Than she breaks with the malazan military traditions that Daseem created, which is said many times are a big reason for why malazan armies are so good.

Not entirely. The squad structure, and sending the marines in first in Yghatan, are vintage Dassem.

Quote

Then she march on Korbolo.. and she just do excactly what korbolo wants her to.. march straight for him exactly where he wants her to be.. in a posistion that heavily favour Korbolo and the apocalypse armie.. which also outnumber the malazan? I mean, what if they hadnt fought against themselces and the ghost army hadmt appeared?

It's clear at the end of HoC that she was expecting Raraku to strike at the Whirlwind. if it hadn't, then her army would have fought at a disadvantage, but not a sure defeat. She was prepared to risk it, which is sort of the point of a military commander.

Quote

Than after that. At Ygatan, she decides to storm a city in the middle of the night.
A city they dont know.. with tons of streets, alleys, buildings etc.. like a maze.. where fanatics can pop up and dissapear again anywhere anytime.

This was explained in the book. They did not have time for an extended siege, and didn't want to give the Whirlwind more time to settle in.

Quote

To me, everything she does seems like stupid ideas..

Y'know, i hear you in the sense that a lot of these things didn't work out, but the reasons for them are right there in the book. I don't know whether you missed that or disagree with it, but either way it's not like SE wrote Tavore sitting there blissfully making stupid decisions for no reason. She wasn't Pormqual.

Quote

And also, Laseen is trying to change the fact that incompetent nobleborn buys themselves power and positions within the military.. So she lets a nobleborn buy herself a position and a army so she can cull the other nobleborn?

Shes part of the rot that has seeped into the malazan empire after Laseen took over.
Along with people such as Pormqual.

Per above, nope.

Quote

MAKE MALAZAN GREAT AGAGAIN!

You are in for SO MUCH fun as you keeping reading this series.

Maybe.

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 09 June 2017 - 04:55 PM, said:

...
And that was a thing that used to make the empire great.. they didnt give comnand to people based on for example, what your last name is, how much money you got or who you know. But based on skill and merit, so anyone can rise in the ranks.

The thing is, it's clear at this point in the story that she does have skill and merit. How much and whether it pays off is part of the story.

Ygatan, she had quick ben a high mage, kalam and pearl 2 great assasins. Plus sappers and soldiers. There could have been better options than a long siege or rushing in blind in the night.

Also regarding Gamet. Okay she had a reason, and i get it. But that doesent really justify it tho.

And i still think she could have made better decicions. Explaining the reasons behind them doesent change that.

And also, ok maybe her intentsions with the whole Felisin and the culling wasnt as i said.

But it still pretty much what actually happened.

Im actually re-reading, i cant remember if she actually got any better, in my eyes atleat. But then i cant remember much from the books at all tho..

[Sir.Bumpaclottus]

Abyss, on 09 June 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 09 June 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

.... i just think fighting urban warfare in an unknow city in the dark doesnt seem smart.

The reason was explained in the book.


Sitting around carrying on a siege with no supply lines, possible reinforcements, or support, on a hostile desert continent engaged in a rather spirited revolution, seems like a better idea?

Im not saying she should that. Its not like it is only 2 options.

[Abyss]

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 09 June 2017 - 06:32 PM, said:

Abyss, on 09 June 2017 - 06:29 PM, said:

Sir.Bumpaclottus, on 09 June 2017 - 06:11 PM, said:

.... i just think fighting urban warfare in an unknow city in the dark doesnt seem smart.

The reason was explained in the book.


Sitting around carrying on a siege with no supply lines, possible reinforcements, or support, on a hostile desert continent engaged in a rather spirited revolution, seems like a better idea?

Im not saying she should that. Its not like it is only 2 options.

Look, it's your read and you're entitled to think what you want and we can just agree to disagree, but your comments read, to me, like you in your extensive military command experience feel like you know better than the author who actually bothered to explain all of the things you have a problem with in the books without spending pages and pages boring us out of the story discussing every conceivable possibility.

So, sure. I'll be interested in seeing if your views change as you get further into the series.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Keep in mind that, despite having played at strategy as a child (I think — if I recall, someone reminisced about how she was always studying and drawing battle plans in the dirt?), she has no actual practical experience. That's why she makes mistakes.

She's caught up in a whirlwind (pun intended) of events, and is thrust into a position of power — a young woman with no public merit, given command of hundreds of grumpy, sometimes seditious soldiers. Soldiers who, if they lose faith in their commander, wouldn't hesitate to cut their head off. She can prove herself by explaining her every action and then trying to appease those who question her reasons; or by taking action, being aloof (cold iron vs hot iron is very important), and letting the results do the explaining for her.

Given that and what has been mentioned by other posters, I think she deserves a little bit of leeway when being judged.

Also, major RAFO for her character's development.

[Sir.Bumpaclottus]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 09 June 2017 - 06:53 PM, said:

Keep in mind that, despite having played at strategy as a child (I think — if I recall, someone reminisced about how she was always studying and drawing battle plans in the dirt?), she has no actual practical experience. That's why she makes mistakes.

She's caught up in a whirlwind (pun intended) of events, and is thrust into a position of power — a young woman with no public merit, given command of hundreds of grumpy, sometimes seditious soldiers. Soldiers who, if they lose faith in their commander, wouldn't hesitate to cut their head off. She can prove herself by explaining her every action and then trying to appease those who question her reasons; or by taking action, being aloof (cold iron vs hot iron is very important), and letting the results do the explaining for her.

Given that and what has been mentioned by other posters, I think she deserves a little bit of leeway when being judged.

Also, major RAFO for her character's development.

What exactly does hot iron mean?
I understand cold iron. But if hot iron is what i think it is, that would almost never be a good quality in a commander.

[HoosierDaddy]

Braveheart. William Wallace has some hot iron in him. Inspiration through action.

[Sir.Bumpaclottus]

HoosierDaddy, on 09 June 2017 - 07:49 PM, said:

Braveheart. William Wallace has some hot iron in him. Inspiration through action.

I tought cold iron, then you were pragmatic and coolheaded.

And hot iron, than you were more hot headed and led by emotion. A more passionate person.

This post has been edited by Sir.Bumpaclottus: 09 June 2017 - 08:01 PM

[Abyss]

MTS, on 17 August 2010 - 05:39 AM, said:

Quote

'Malazan military doctrine—something Coltaine well understood, but also something
that High Fist Pormqual had clearly lost sight of. Tactics are consensual. Dassem Ultor's
original doctrine, when he was finally made First Sword of the Malazan Empire. "Strategy
belongs to the commander, but tactics are the first field of battle, and it is fought in the
command tent." Dassem's own words. Of course, such a system relied heavily upon
capable officers. Incompetent officers - such as those that subsequently infiltrated the
chain of—'
'Nobleborn officers, you mean.'
'Bluntly, yes. The purchasing of commissions - Dassem would never have permitted
that, and from what I gather, nor does the Empress. Not any more, in any case. There
was a cull—'
'Yes, I know, L'oric. By your argument, then, Tavore's personality has no relevance—'
'Not entirely, mistress. It has, for tactics are the child of strategy. And the truth of
Tavore's nature will shape that strategy. Veteran soldiers speak of hot iron and cold iron.
Coltaine was cold iron. Dujek Onearm is cold iron, too, although not always - he's a rare
one in being able to shift as necessity demands. But Tavore? Unknown.'
'Explain this "cold iron", L'oric.'
'Mistress, this subject is not my expertise—'
'You have certainly fooled me. Explain. Now.'
'Very well, such as I understand it—'
'Cease equivocating.'
He cleared his throat, then turned and called out, 'Mathok. Would you join us,
please.'
Sha'ik scowled at the presumption behind that invitation, but then inwardly relented.
This is important, after all. I feel it. The heart of all that will follow. 'Join us, Mathok,' she
said.
He dismounted and strode over.
L'oric addressed him. 'I have been asked to explain "cold iron", Warchief, and for this
I need help.'
The desert warrior bared his teeth. 'Cold iron. Coltaine. Dassem Ultor - if the legends
speak true. Dujek Onearm. Admiral Nok. K'azz D'Avore of the Crimson Guard. Inish
Garn, who once led the Gral. Cold iron, Chosen One. Hard. Sharp. It is held before you,
and so you reach.' He crossed his arms.
'You reach,' L'oric nodded. 'Yes, that's it. You reach. And are stuck fast.'
'Cold iron,' Mathok growled. 'The warchief's soul - it either rages with the fire of life,
or is cold with death. Chosen One, Korbolo Dom is hot iron, as am I. As are you. We are
as the sun's fires, as the desert's heat, as the breath of the Whirlwind Goddess herself.'
'The Army of the Apocalypse is hot iron.'
'Aye, Chosen One. And thus, we must pray that the forge of Tavore's heart blazes
with vengeance.'
'That she too is hot iron? Why?'
'For then, we shall not lose.'
Sha'ik's knees suddenly weakened and she almost staggered. L'oric moved close to
support her, alarm on his face.
'Mistress?'
'I am… I am all right. A moment…' She fixed her gaze on Mathok once more, saw the
brief gauging regard in his eyes that then quickly slipped once again behind his
impassive mien. 'Warchief, what if Tavore is cold iron?'
The deadliest clash of all, Chosen One. Which shall shatter first?'
L'oric said, 'Military histories reveal, mistress, that cold iron defeats hot iron more
often than not. By a count of three or four to one.'
'Yet Coltaine! Did he not fall to Korbolo Dom?'
She noted L'oric's eyes meet Mathok's momentarily.
'Well?' she demanded.
'Chosen One,' Mathok rumbled, 'Korbolo Dom and Coltaine fought nine major
engagements - nine battles - on the Chain of Dogs. Of these, Korbolo was clear victor in
one, and one only. At the Fall. Outside the walls of Aren. And for that he needed Kamist
Reloe, and the power of Mael, as channelled through the jhistal priest, Mallick Rel.'
Her head was spinning, panic ripping through her, and she knew L'oric could feel her
trembling.
'Sha'ik,' he whispered, close by her ear, 'you know Tavore, don't you? You know her,
and she is cold iron, isn't she?'
Mute, she nodded. She did not know how she knew, for neither Mathok nor L'oric
seemed able to give a concrete definition, suggesting to her that the notion derived from
a gut level, a place of primal instinct. And so, she knew.
L'oric had lifted his head. 'Mathok.'
'High Mage?'
'Who, among us, is cold iron? Is there anyone?'
'There are two, High Mage. And one of these is capable of both: Toblakai.'
'And the other?'
'Leoman of the Flails.'

[Aptorian]

That quote is pretty good specifically the ending note about Leoman being Cold Iron. Cold Iron vs Cold Iron. I'd have liked their opinion of the results or examples of such commanders facing one another.