[Nimander Golit]

Galain, on 16 June 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

I don't think Nim's case on Lock is particularly strong. The thing that does make me hesitate more than most things is their pronouncement some time ago that Rashan was not a vampire - which was probably their strongest hint at a finder ability. Did Nim say it just to give that impression, or in truth? That's what I'd like to find out now.

Literally the whole case on me is that Lock made a claim a week ago, which he then started hedging, and only now reiterated now that I'm still alive days later.
I, meanwhile, spent this week on thread debunking Lock's original lie and then the more and more convoluted scenarios the others kept throwing at me. But the 'case' on me is stronger

Let's put it in different terms. What IS the case on me exactly?

Rashan, on 16 June 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Otoh if he really did a find on me how could he be so sure even the next day? He didn't acknowledge the possibility that I might already be recruited until I pointed it out, which seems off. Maybe he somehow knew I haven't been recruited and it was a slip, but even without this possibility it's suspicious.

I didn't have any assurance you haven't been recruited since I made the original claim that you're not a vampire. It was a slip in the sense that on thread I was focused completely on Lock (apart from the brief moment when I considered Galain's theory that we might be two townies in friendly fire), so I pointed out your and Jalan's behavior but didn't give it more thought.

[Lock]

Nimander Golit, on 16 June 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

Galain, on 16 June 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

I don't think Nim's case on Lock is particularly strong. The thing that does make me hesitate more than most things is their pronouncement some time ago that Rashan was not a vampire - which was probably their strongest hint at a finder ability. Did Nim say it just to give that impression, or in truth? That's what I'd like to find out now.

Literally the whole case on me is that Lock made a claim a week ago, which he then started hedging, and only now reiterated now that I'm still alive days later.
I, meanwhile, spent this week on thread debunking Lock's original lie and then the more and more convoluted scenarios the others kept throwing at me. But the 'case' on me is stronger

You didn't debunk shit. I'm still standing by the original claim I made. What has made me more certain that you're vamp-aligned is your behavior on thread and your false claim regarding NAs you've done.

[Nimander Golit]

Lock, on 16 June 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

2 vampires against ten town is a normal town vs scum game.

A) In a game where town has an accurate find and kill machine like Buffy as well as other roles, wouldn't it make sense for the vampires to start with more than two?

No? Vampires can recruit and Buffy needs 2 Nights to complete a Kill and only assuming she does a correct find. 9v3+recruiting doesn't add up.

Lock, on 16 June 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

You're using the deadlock on thread as evidence that the vampires had less than X number of players. I call bullshit. General apathy or lack of team knowledge (the recruit/recruits wouldn't have to know every main vamp, just one or perhaps none).

This is my favorite.
My argument: the math doesn't add up.
Lock's counter-argument: APATHY!! YOU LIE!!

You didn't call out the assumption that with 3 starting vampires we would still have 3 right now, so I assume you acknowledge it. In this scenario I'm a vampire with 2 partners and we only need one vote to get you and have parity. Where are they?

Lock, on 16 June 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

C) Your claims on thread are plain, bald-faced lies. A townie wouldn't make them. A vampire grasping at straws would.

This one's clever, gotta give you that. You forced my hand to protect myself, because it's in the best interest of my team, and now you're using it to claim a townie wouldn't do that. The sad part is it looks to be working.

[Nimander Golit]

Lock, on 16 June 2017 - 10:07 AM, said:

Nimander Golit, on 16 June 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

Galain, on 16 June 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

I don't think Nim's case on Lock is particularly strong. The thing that does make me hesitate more than most things is their pronouncement some time ago that Rashan was not a vampire - which was probably their strongest hint at a finder ability. Did Nim say it just to give that impression, or in truth? That's what I'd like to find out now.

Literally the whole case on me is that Lock made a claim a week ago, which he then started hedging, and only now reiterated now that I'm still alive days later.
I, meanwhile, spent this week on thread debunking Lock's original lie and then the more and more convoluted scenarios the others kept throwing at me. But the 'case' on me is stronger

You didn't debunk shit.

Except every single word you wrote.

[Lock]

Nimander Golit, on 16 June 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

Lock, on 16 June 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

2 vampires against ten town is a normal town vs scum game.

A) In a game where town has an accurate find and kill machine like Buffy as well as other roles, wouldn't it make sense for the vampires to start with more than two?

No? Vampires can recruit and Buffy needs 2 Nights to complete a Kill and only assuming she does a correct find. 9v3+recruiting doesn't add up.

Lock, on 16 June 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

You're using the deadlock on thread as evidence that the vampires had less than X number of players. I call bullshit. General apathy or lack of team knowledge (the recruit/recruits wouldn't have to know every main vamp, just one or perhaps none).

This is my favorite.
My argument: the math doesn't add up.
Lock's counter-argument: APATHY!! YOU LIE!!

You didn't call out the assumption that with 3 starting vampires we would still have 3 right now, so I assume you acknowledge it. In this scenario I'm a vampire with 2 partners and we only need one vote to get you and have parity. Where are they?

Lock, on 16 June 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

C) Your claims on thread are plain, bald-faced lies. A townie wouldn't make them. A vampire grasping at straws would.

This one's clever, gotta give you that. You forced my hand to protect myself, because it's in the best interest of my team, and now you're using it to claim a townie wouldn't do that. The sad part is it looks to be working.

No, your argument was:

If the vampires had recruited exactly this number and done exactly that, the math wouldn't add up.

My argument was:

Unless you're a vampire, you have no idea how their recruitment worked or how many they've recruited. Using the math as proof you're innocent is pure and simple WIFOM. We don't know whether there are recruits or not, and we don't know whether they know the other vampires.

Finally, your claim is that with S&D's death, the only vampires left on thread are recruits, right?

Why would I, as a recruit, make such a tenuous claim on thread before Drusilla was killed? In what world does that course of action make any sort of sense? And I did that when D wasn't under pressure from anyone in anyway. I wouldn't know how many people there were on my team, or whether we were on D-day or not. For fuck's sake, I'd be lucky to know D's identity at that point.

[Nimander Golit]

But you made your claim WAY after Drusila was killed. See, you can't even be bothered to keep track of the timeline, but somehow accuse me of un-townielike behavior. You know who usually doesn't care? Scum.

[Lock]

Nimander Golit, on 16 June 2017 - 10:31 AM, said:

But you made your claim WAY after Drusila was killed. See, you can't even be bothered to keep track of the timeline, but somehow accuse me of un-townielike behavior. You know who usually doesn't care? Scum.

Drusilla, Spike, whatever. I made my claim before the second scum (Thyr-Ment) was killed. I can't remember their name exactly. The point being, I had no reason to do what I did if I was scum and every reason to do it were I town.

[Nimander Golit]

I have explained my suspicion over why you made that move both before and after Thyr was killed. It explains why you think I haven't debunked shit. You're just not reading the thread.

But the more important point is, you're caught flat-out lying - with no speculation, no WIFOM, nothing to hide behind - and the best you can muster is 'whatever'. How there are still people buying into your claims is beyond me.

[Lock]

Nimander Golit, on 16 June 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

I have explained my suspicion over why you made that move both before and after Thyr was killed. It explains why you think I haven't debunked shit. You're just not reading the thread.

But the more important point is, you're caught flat-out lying - with no speculation, no WIFOM, nothing to hide behind - and the best you can muster is 'whatever'. How there are still people buying into your claims is beyond me.

I have never lied on thread. Therefore, it's impossible for me to be caught doing it.

[Galain]

Nimander Golit, on 16 June 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

Galain, on 16 June 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

I don't think Nim's case on Lock is particularly strong. The thing that does make me hesitate more than most things is their pronouncement some time ago that Rashan was not a vampire - which was probably their strongest hint at a finder ability. Did Nim say it just to give that impression, or in truth? That's what I'd like to find out now.

Literally the whole case on me is that Lock made a claim a week ago, which he then started hedging, and only now reiterated now that I'm still alive days later.
I, meanwhile, spent this week on thread debunking Lock's original lie and then the more and more convoluted scenarios the others kept throwing at me. But the 'case' on me is stronger

Let's put it in different terms. What IS the case on me exactly?

Rashan, on 16 June 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

Otoh if he really did a find on me how could he be so sure even the next day? He didn't acknowledge the possibility that I might already be recruited until I pointed it out, which seems off. Maybe he somehow knew I haven't been recruited and it was a slip, but even without this possibility it's suspicious.

I didn't have any assurance you haven't been recruited since I made the original claim that you're not a vampire. It was a slip in the sense that on thread I was focused completely on Lock (apart from the brief moment when I considered Galain's theory that we might be two townies in friendly fire), so I pointed out your and Jalan's behavior but didn't give it more thought.

You miss out Thyrllan's association with you. More than that, the fact that you are trying to paint Lock and Thyr as being in the same faction, when Thyr's attempt to get Lock lynched suggests otherwise.

Your initial argument for why Lock would reveal their info when they first did was also tenuous at best, something I pointed out back then when I first voted for you before Thyr's death.

Obviously I'm not totally convinced that you are a vampire, but I find it less likely that Lock is. They are right, your arguments regarding them are based on maths that we simply can't prove - I for one have no idea what numbers either faction started with, and have just mostly gone along with general assumption on mechanics.

[Kilava]

Okay, the only thing I don't like about Nimander's latest is his final words: "Kilava looks town."

Seems like just an appeal to sway me in particular, since I'm being the most balky, and the likeliest to be swayed. Nope, I do not like it.

But, I'm being swayed away from Nimander mainly because he has put real and sustained effort into his defense, while Lock pops in for two or three posts a day saying shit like: "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" I don't really think Lock is a vampire either (or at least not up until his latest posts, which kinda come off as scummy, tbh.

I'm not gonna hammer. Simple as that. Y'all want Nimander dead? Fine. Lynch him.

I still have time for a post or three more this am, but for now I'm leaving my vote on Tatts.

[Merrid]

Kilava, on 16 June 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Okay, the only thing I don't like about Nimander's latest is his final words: "Kilava looks town."

Seems like just an appeal to sway me in particular, since I'm being the most balky, and the likeliest to be swayed. Nope, I do not like it.

But, I'm being swayed away from Nimander mainly because he has put real and sustained effort into his defense, while Lock pops in for two or three posts a day saying shit like: "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" I don't really think Lock is a vampire either (or at least not up until his latest posts, which kinda come off as scummy, tbh.

I'm not gonna hammer. Simple as that. Y'all want Nimander dead? Fine. Lynch him.

I still have time for a post or three more this am, but for now I'm leaving my vote on Tatts.

Of course he did, he is a vamp, and doesn't want to die!

You are missing the point.

If Lock is right, Lock is roled, Nim is a vamp.
If Nim is right, Nim is RI, Lock is a vamp.

We have less to lose by lynching Nimander. Abstaining does not help us.

[Kilava]

I was feeling pretty good about Jalan as vamp, since on the rare occasions he's here he doesn't do much but agree with everyone, despite opposing opinions.

But he's been too inactive to really think he could be a recruit, and I think we're dealing with two recruits here, so he'd have to be this hypothetical third starting vampire, "the Disjointed One," or whatever the hell his name is. And I'm far from convinced he exists.

[Kilava]

Merrid, on 16 June 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

Kilava, on 16 June 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Okay, the only thing I don't like about Nimander's latest is his final words: "Kilava looks town."

Seems like just an appeal to sway me in particular, since I'm being the most balky, and the likeliest to be swayed. Nope, I do not like it.

But, I'm being swayed away from Nimander mainly because he has put real and sustained effort into his defense, while Lock pops in for two or three posts a day saying shit like: "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" I don't really think Lock is a vampire either (or at least not up until his latest posts, which kinda come off as scummy, tbh.

I'm not gonna hammer. Simple as that. Y'all want Nimander dead? Fine. Lynch him.

I still have time for a post or three more this am, but for now I'm leaving my vote on Tatts.

Of course he did, he is a vamp, and doesn't want to die!

You are missing the point.

If Lock is right, Lock is roled, Nim is a vamp.
If Nim is right, Nim is RI, Lock is a vamp.

We have less to lose by lynching Nimander. Abstaining does not help us.

Nimander is at L1, correct?

[Merrid]

He has three votes on him.

Merrid, on 15 June 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

I think we need to lynch Nimander. This Lock-Nimander thing has been going on for too long. The only way to resolve it is by testing Lock's claim and to do that, we need to lynch Nimander. Why Nimander? Because his claim, that it is impossible he has a kill power is wrong. This is a game with recruitment mechanics and potential inheritance mechanics. Hell, there could have been a third starting vamp with a one-time kill ability. We cannot reasonably rule out Nimander has a kill ability. Doing so would be irresponsible. But why not lynch Lock? Because of a comparative BCS-WCS scenario. We lynch Nimander. BCS he is a vamp. WCS he is RI. We lynch Lock. BCS he is a vamp. WCS he is roled town. I will take an RI lynch over a roled Town lynch anyday. We need to lynch Nimander. Vote Nimander.

Lock, on 15 June 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

OK, can somebody explain to me why everybody has assumed Spike+Drussila were the only original vampires? What about the Annointed one? Also, Nimander insinuating he could've ascertained any one's faction, or that he has had anything to do with the night kills on vampires is a plain ass lie. It makes me even more certain he has to be a vampire. Vote Nimander

Galain, on 16 June 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

Not sure how much time left or when I'll be next around.I'm going to Vote Nimander Golit Because I'm keen to get past this stage of the game and I think this is the most sensible move based on what I make of the game. There is a chance that Nim could be Buffy, but if that is the case, the amount of scrutiny now almost makes them a liability as they're diverting attention from others.I don't think Nim's case on Lock is particularly strong. The thing that does make me hesitate more than most things is their pronouncement some time ago that Rashan was not a vampire - which was probably their strongest hint at a finder ability. Did Nim say it just to give that impression, or in truth? That's what I'd like to find out now.

[Galain]

Merrid, on 16 June 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

Kilava, on 16 June 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Okay, the only thing I don't like about Nimander's latest is his final words: "Kilava looks town."

Seems like just an appeal to sway me in particular, since I'm being the most balky, and the likeliest to be swayed. Nope, I do not like it.

But, I'm being swayed away from Nimander mainly because he has put real and sustained effort into his defense, while Lock pops in for two or three posts a day saying shit like: "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" I don't really think Lock is a vampire either (or at least not up until his latest posts, which kinda come off as scummy, tbh.

I'm not gonna hammer. Simple as that. Y'all want Nimander dead? Fine. Lynch him.

I still have time for a post or three more this am, but for now I'm leaving my vote on Tatts.

Of course he did, he is a vamp, and doesn't want to die!

You are missing the point.

If Lock is right, Lock is roled, Nim is a vamp.
If Nim is right, Nim is RI, Lock is a vamp.

We have less to lose by lynching Nimander. Abstaining does not help us.

You keep saying this about Nim being RI at worst, and it's getting kinda weird.

[Nimander Golit]

Galain, on 16 June 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

You miss out Thyrllan's association with you. More than that, the fact that you are trying to paint Lock and Thyr as being in the same faction, when Thyr's attempt to get Lock lynched suggests otherwise.

We've been through this so I won't spend much time on this. I think Thyr knew Lock's reveal is fake. Reveals like this are usually trusted and lead to a lynch, so Thyr just hedged his bet. And rightly so, because Lock picked a wrong target. I'm sure Thyr was fine with either outcome - me dead, or Lock dead with him on the train. A lot of this reasoning is based on Thyr being Ment - whether you buy a meta argument or not is a different matter.

Galain, on 16 June 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Your initial argument for why Lock would reveal their info when they first did was also tenuous at best, something I pointed out back then when I first voted for you before Thyr's death.

Obviously I'm not totally convinced that you are a vampire, but I find it less likely that Lock is. They are right, your arguments regarding them are based on maths that we simply can't prove - I for one have no idea what numbers either faction started with, and have just mostly gone along with general assumption on mechanics.

No one can prove anything in Mafia. Ffs, this is the point of this game. You have incomplete information and you use what you learn to fill in the gaps. What I've been asking for is, build me a version of events in which what Lock says holds up.

We've been over 2-vampire scenario from every angle and it's just impossible for me to have killed Silchas in it. Merrid suggested that if there was inherited alternating recruit/kill, I could be the killer, but even if you go along with it, the timeline still doesn't work.
Variant with 3 vampires has been discussed above so feel free to look at it and tell me how I could have killed Silchas.

Lock says I made math based on some arbitrary assumption and because of that it's not believable which is just another case of Lock lying on thread. I came up with different scenarios, you lot came up with other ones, and still, after a damn week, there is no plausible way in which I could have killed Silchas. And the whole case on me is Lock says that I did.

Kilava, on 16 June 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Okay, the only thing I don't like about Nimander's latest is his final words: "Kilava looks town."

Seems like just an appeal to sway me in particular, since I'm being the most balky, and the likeliest to be swayed. Nope, I do not like it.

Because it is an appeal to sway you. You seem to have more knowledge than others and I don't see you as a vampire, so I believe convincing you we're on the same side is in our best interest.

[Lock]

I'll say this before going to sleep.

If you guys decide Nimander isn't the guy for you, lynching me won't hinder town too much. But please, please, please, lynch somebody today. This shit is getting ridiculous.

[Nimander Golit]

Merrid, on 16 June 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

Kilava, on 16 June 2017 - 11:21 AM, said:

Okay, the only thing I don't like about Nimander's latest is his final words: "Kilava looks town."

Seems like just an appeal to sway me in particular, since I'm being the most balky, and the likeliest to be swayed. Nope, I do not like it.

But, I'm being swayed away from Nimander mainly because he has put real and sustained effort into his defense, while Lock pops in for two or three posts a day saying shit like: "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" I don't really think Lock is a vampire either (or at least not up until his latest posts, which kinda come off as scummy, tbh.

I'm not gonna hammer. Simple as that. Y'all want Nimander dead? Fine. Lynch him.

I still have time for a post or three more this am, but for now I'm leaving my vote on Tatts.

Of course he did, he is a vamp, and doesn't want to die!

If anyone is still wondering why Lock did that reveal, look no further than this post. Lock put me on the spot and forced me to defend myself because lynching me is a dumbass thing for town to do and I don't intend to let that happen. The more I defend myself, the more questions arise, while Lock just sits back and watches it unfold. I keep trying to dig myself out of this clusterfuck but it makes me look defensive. So Merrid comes around and says because I'm working hard to stay alive, it must be because I'm a vampire.

This is the sort of logic that kills town.

[Kilava]

I've got to get going. Talk Nimander or Jalan into it. I'm not buying it.