[Malankazooie]

Any of you guys getting in on the Destiny 2 open beta? I'm not myself, but would like to hear a debrief by any of you who are. I've heard there are changes to the weapons classifications in Destiny 2 and also is it true that PvP is being culled down to 4 against 4? Is that across all game gametypes or just certain ones?

I guess I would just like any info you guys would like to share regarding Destiny 2 open beta that you think is pertinent to know for OG Destiny players.

[Silencer]

Malankazooie, on 14 July 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

Any of you guys getting in on the Destiny 2 open beta? I'm not myself, but would like to hear a debrief by any of you who are. I've heard there are changes to the weapons classifications in Destiny 2 and also is it true that PvP is being culled down to 4 against 4? Is that across all game gametypes or just certain ones?

I guess I would just like any info you guys would like to share regarding Destiny 2 open beta that you think is pertinent to know for OG Destiny players.

I'll be playing the beta, and you can be pretty sure I'll be posting about it here during/afterwards.

The weapons no longer have primary/secondary/heavy archetypes. There are all the normal weapon types (auto/pulse/hand cannon/SMG (which is new)/etc), but they come in two types - kinetic and energy. You can have any combination of kinetic and energy weapon equipped (so you could have both auto rifles, or one auto and one hand cannon). Plus, one "power weapon", which is replacing the heavy weapon category and now includes things like shotguns and sniper rifles.

And yes, 4v4 is standard. Apparently - and hear the sarcasm dripping in my voice when I say this - it was because 6v6 was too hectic and complicated with the new powers and weapon loadouts. I think that's total BS, but hey, this is the company that still thinks their Raids are complex and difficult. >.>


But I'll be pre-loading the beta this week and getting onto that when it drops next weekend. I'll have plenty of feedback, including whether I'm personally keeping my pre-order in place or not (because I am seriously starting to question that).

[Malankazooie]

Silencer, on 15 July 2017 - 03:29 AM, said:

Malankazooie, on 14 July 2017 - 10:04 PM, said:

Any of you guys getting in on the Destiny 2 open beta? I'm not myself, but would like to hear a debrief by any of you who are. I've heard there are changes to the weapons classifications in Destiny 2 and also is it true that PvP is being culled down to 4 against 4? Is that across all game gametypes or just certain ones?

I guess I would just like any info you guys would like to share regarding Destiny 2 open beta that you think is pertinent to know for OG Destiny players.

I'll be playing the beta, and you can be pretty sure I'll be posting about it here during/afterwards.

The weapons no longer have primary/secondary/heavy archetypes. There are all the normal weapon types (auto/pulse/hand cannon/SMG (which is new)/etc), but they come in two types - kinetic and energy. You can have any combination of kinetic and energy weapon equipped (so you could have both auto rifles, or one auto and one hand cannon). Plus, one "power weapon", which is replacing the heavy weapon category and now includes things like shotguns and sniper rifles.

And yes, 4v4 is standard. Apparently - and hear the sarcasm dripping in my voice when I say this - it was because 6v6 was too hectic and complicated with the new powers and weapon loadouts. I think that's total BS, but hey, this is the company that still thinks their Raids are complex and difficult. >.>


But I'll be pre-loading the beta this week and getting onto that when it drops next weekend. I'll have plenty of feedback, including whether I'm personally keeping my pre-order in place or not (because I am seriously starting to question that).

This is awesome! Thank you! I look forward to your debrief!

[Silencer]

So, as promised, my impressions from the beta. Yes, it has only been available for 2 hours on the Xbox, yes, that is enough time to do everything.

Overview stuff:

Pros:
- Enemy diversity appears greatly improved, at least amongst the Cabal. Of course, the guys in the opening mission might be the entirety of the Cabal roster, in which case I will be disappointed, but there does appear to be more than we've seen previously, which is a good thing. Psions now appear to be snipers, too, which gives them a more defined role.
- Enemy behaviour is improved. While enemies are still fairly underwhelming for anyone used to Halo AI, they now are much more dynamic - Cabal Legionnaires throw grenades more often and with better precision, and they now (possibly all Cabal?) have a giant arm-mounted blade that they pull out when they want to melee you, and can chase you for a ways. They mix this up a decent amount which makes encounters more interesting.
- Assault rifles appear to be slightly improved (starting one had 45 rounds in the mag, decent impact, and a fire rate of "600", which I take to mean rounds-per-minute, compared to the SMG standard of 900, Hand Cannon of 120, etc). The differentiation of Hand Cannons and Sidearms appears to be better handled now too (however, see Cons).
- Arcstrider was fun. It's definitely better than Bladedancer. But still leaves a bit to be desired.
- New class abilities spice things up a little, and provide some consistency between subclasses.
- On the Crucible front, I am a fan of the UI redesign, with the area locations being clearly displayed under the radar on the HUD and actually feeling like they are thought through. I like knowing who has their Super up, etc, though for some this might take away from the suspense a little (also, see Cons).
- Being able to run whatever you want in Primary/Secondary is great, even if the first level kinda sorta forces you to use the one Hand Cannon in your Energy slot because, for some reason, it's the only gun they give you to start with that has Solar burn on it. >.>
- I need to try a different Class, but I like what they've done with the Hunter jumps. They are much more distinct in behaviour and utility, and they *sound* different. Hopefully they also sound different compared to other classes' jumps.
- Weapon perks and mods seem like they are more varied and have more interesting and distinct effects on weapon stats and play. Though, frankly, I'd still like to see more visual changes on the weapons themselves other than the sights, but I'll take what I can get.
- It looks marginally better than Destiny did.

Cons:
- Do NOT like what they've done with the rate of turning when sprinting. Way too sluggish. Had to turn up look speed across the board to make it not feel like my character was pushing through sludge when sprinting. YMMV
- The UI in Crucible is way too cluttered now. Don't like the giant squares of player status above my health bar. May get used to it, but it almost feels like my health is an afterthought.
- There is no way this game couldn't work with 6v6, or at least 5v5, it's not that crazy.
- Vex enemies did not show significant unit variation. I guess the Cabal are the stars of this game, but not sure if that's justifiable for not having some new twists on old enemies?
- The Strike was much of a muchness. Admittedly, it had more Things To Do ™ than previous efforts and the way the final boss' arena changed was a nice try...ultimately though, bosses appear to still be damage sponge enemies with little purpose other than burning ammo. Given the lack of Power Ammo lying around (or dropping, for that matter), this is frustrating. Especially as Sniper Rifles are now Power weapons.
- Scout Rifle felt horrendously underpowered? I will have to experiment more but it was hella disappointing.
- Sidearms are great in the opening level, hit plenty hard. In Crucible, not so much. Also, in the campaign, it kinda made it annoying to have to use the Hand Cannon for the Solar damage, as it was much more satisfying to use the Sidearm...
- SMGs....ughhhhhhhhhhhhh. An entire clip to bring down one Cabal mook? Really? Needs more testing, but I used this on three enemies at one point and promptly took the chance to change back to my AR as soon as they were dead.
- Weapon *sounds* in general were...underwhelming. I honestly didn't feel like the weapons were powerful at all. Even the Hand Cannon was a bit muted. Though, I grant, playing at 3am with the sound down may not be the most accurate representation, I'll report back if this changes significantly with more volume - but the ratio of gunfire noise to Zavala's voice does not give me much hope.
- Weapon design, as a whole, has gone to hell. Now, small sample size, fair enough. But the starting weapons (except the AR) all look like some sort of weird overly bladed guns, and the couple that I've got since are hella blocky and so, also look weird. I wonder if they've spent more time on ship designs than weapon designs, tbh.
- The starting armor for each class and subsequent couple of drops does not leave me with much hope as to looking different from everyone else. Again. Though, plus points, individual armor piece shaders! Probably, I haven't actually got a shader yet but the slot on each item seems to imply such.
- Apparently they decided that when we do use the Director from Orbit/during loading screens, we still shouldn't have anything fun to do like move our ships around or whatever. Take a leaf from Warframe, guys, it adds massively to the feel of loading screens. XD
- Grenades are still woefully underpowered, in Crucible at least. In PvE they seemed to be more powerful, but I made the mistake of using the arc lightning grenade in the campaign and it still has far too small a scan area, leading to it failing to kill anyone if the enemies are not very tightly packed together. But when it did hit them it was good? So Jury is out on this one, but my experience with them in Crucible still leaves me questioning their long cooldowns and single uses.


Alright, more rambly thoughts:

So, if they were hoping to sell people with this beta, they gone done fucked up. Aside from what I accept are likely very subjective personal opinions about aesthetic design choices on the weapons and such, this is a 2-hour beta, 3 if you play some Crucible. (The main campaign does not appear to be replayable after your initial run.) The lack of substantial improvements over Destiny 1 in the Strike design, the lackluster weapon feedback, some quite concerning weapon viability issues, and annoying small things like terrible turning arcs while sprinting should, by themselves, be a turn off. Never mind the lack of any sort of free play mode - even a cut-out piece of a Patrol map? Come on!
I will likely play the Strike once more with a friend this evening after work. But if I can't find a way to play as a different class (I haven't looked, btw, so no idea if there is or not), that's it. That's the sum total of the beta for me, and any chance to sell me on the broader game mechanics is lost. I know it's a beta, and I know they need to test load capacities, and look for bugs, but they still surely want to make an impression? I saw the opening level back at E3 - playing it for myself has done nothing if not make me LESS impressed with it (not counting better enemy variations). That Strike should have rocked my world, too. One can only assume it is entirely representative of all Strikes in the final game, and it might as well have been the Nexus for all the differences it showed.
There are only a handful of things I can say are outright BETTER than Destiny, too. Most of them are just different. Destiny 1.5 remains an accurate summary of this game. That's not to say it's bad. Destiny wasn't a bad game by any means. But if this is more or less representative of the final product that is Destiny 2...I hope what you really wanted was more of the same. Like, the almost exact same. They haven't done ANYTHING revolutionary, bold, risky, or really properly addressed any of the major issues people have been talking about for the entirety of Destiny's lifecycle (notable exceptions from the E3 conference excluded, because most of those are QOL stuff that should've been patched into Destiny anyway).
I enjoyed my time this morning with the game. But it was a passive enjoyment. I didn't engage with it, it didn't suck me in. A few of the changes even prevented me from just slipping back into my old rhythm and turning off my brain, because they were annoying. I'm going to keep my mouth firmly shut when my best friend and Destiny wingman plays this for the first time. Because I don't want to influence his reaction. But I'll be really interested to see what it is. (If it differs significantly from my own, I'll report back here, too.)
I feel like I went into this beta with realistic expectations of what the game would play like, and was still somehow let down. Even the new little things like the Class abilities...they aren't actually much of a gamechanger. And for the Hunter...whose ability is literally "dodge", the cooldown is far too long IMO. In a game where the movement already feels...restrictive in a lot of ways, to have the dodge as it currently functions on such a long timer is seriously perplexing. I'm actually not even sure it should be class ability, instead of just a generic movement option across all classes, but because it is, it feels so...useless, in its current form. It'll probably save your life once in a blue moon, but that's not much of a selling point. Ultimately, this game would have benefited from more mobility options, but the one they did add to the most mobile of the classes (in theory), is so limited as to be wasted.


Alright, I will leave my thoughts there for now, mull them over during the day, and follow up after some more play tonight. As usual, my apologies for sounding like the guy with the "End is Nigh" sign, but I'm just trying to call it as I see it. Also, still pretty sure 90% of this stuff is Activision's fault, especially the "eerily same sequel" syndrome as seen in their other major FPS franchises. >.>

[Malankazooie]

It's good to hear that enemy diversity has improved. That's one of the reasons I got bored of Destiny and probably why I've not really gotten into any of the Halo titles. There's just not enough variety in the enemies.

About the weapon design, I had the same reaction when I watched a YouTube video of some Countdown (Crucible) gameplay. In the video, the player is using a shotgun and it looks weird due to being super blocky looking.

Overall, after reading your thoughts, Destiny 2 really sounds like an original Destiny year 4 expansion or something: "The Taken King's House of Wolves Is Made Of Dark Iron" or some such nonsense. <<<< see what I did there? Or Destiny 1.5 as you said.

This post has been edited by Malankazooie: 20 July 2017 - 06:42 AM

[Silencer]

So far, that is exactly what it feels like. I'll get a bit of a different feel for it with some coop, and so far the Warlock as proven a more interesting class (go figure) - though it's rather infuriating, because you know all that stuff I was saying about Hunter movement and having too much cooldown for the most mobile class? Solar Warlocks get a freaking mid-air dash ability that only has a 10 second cooldown. They are officially more mobile than Hunters. What. The. Eff.

I've slightly warmed up to the new hand cannons, Scout Rifles are still hella underpowered though, but the remaining problem with the HCs is that they sound like they're barking rather than roaring...and you don't get that satisfying one-shot headshot pop on the new Cabal mooks (at least in the campaign mission), which just...ruins them. Two-to-three shots from an HC to bring down a basic mook is a bit much when you've got 8-13 rounds in the chamber. :S

[Silencer]

Alright, to quote my wingman verbatim:

"I like the new auto rifle. That's about all I have to say."

XD

Like me, he's a bit cautious about being optimistic on the game given what happened with Destiny 1, but we both think it's not exactly the most impressive beta ever, and that it amounts to a new expansion. Main hope is for lots of content this time around to keep people busy.

[QuickTidal]

I won't be allowed to play this game anyways. My wife says it stresses me out too much.

Still, it sounds like they've not exactly changed all that much, which is disappointing.

[Macros]

I feel like we need emoticons with audio.
Then we could have a whiplash sound effect.
And post it right about now

[Malankazooie]

I'll keep paying attention to the reviews as they come in. At a minimum I will probably at least rent the title from Redbox and play through the early campaign because there's supposed to be some bombastic theatrics that occur early on. An event that supposedly will tug on the feels of original Destiny players.

[Malankazooie]

Also, the 4v4 limitation in Crucible games is sort of a deal breaker for me. I can just imagine getting into a match where I need to accomplish x to complete a bounty, because there are only 4 enemies that you can battle to achieve stipulations of the bounty it will make it all the more difficult to accomplish. Booooooo! Hopefully they will scale the bounties and Crucible achievements appropriately due to this limitation.

[Silencer]

Malankazooie, on 21 July 2017 - 05:20 AM, said:

Also, the 4v4 limitation in Crucible games is sort of a deal breaker for me. I can just imagine getting into a match where I need to accomplish x to complete a bounty, because there are only 4 enemies that you can battle to achieve stipulations of the bounty it will make it all the more difficult to accomplish. Booooooo! Hopefully they will scale the bounties and Crucible achievements appropriately due to this limitation.

Imagine they will, but what annoys me about it is that not only does the gameplay not (so far) justify the limitation to me.

But second to that is it still seems to struggle to get a straight 4v4 game full from the start. Now, the beta has less people to choose from but this wasn't an issue in plenty of other betas I've played, which required more people to fill the roster. It should be easier to find a game, when it releases though.

Also, have I mentioned how hard it is to find ammo for the power weapons in the strike? Ammo in general seems to be in short supply during the boss fight, but power ammo drops are straight up rare. To the point where most people don't have any to use. Especially with sniper rifles and shotguns now being power weapons, this feels bad. (and the one shotgun I've tried had a max ammo cap of 14 rounds, to add to the problem considerably.) hopefully this is rectified. It made sense with rocket launchers, but this is different!

(also, the return of arbitrarily invulnerable bosses returns - always hate this, sad to see it's back. If I can see the boss I should be able to damage it!)

[Khellendros]

Silencer, on 21 July 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

Also, have I mentioned how hard it is to find ammo for the power weapons in the strike? Ammo in general seems to be in short supply during the boss fight, but power ammo drops are straight up rare. To the point where most people don't have any to use. Especially with sniper rifles and shotguns now being power weapons, this feels bad. (and the one shotgun I've tried had a max ammo cap of 14 rounds, to add to the problem considerably.) hopefully this is rectified. It made sense with rocket launchers, but this is different!

The cynic in me says it's purposefully rare to incentivise ammo-purchasing microtransactions (not that I've heard anything about that being a thing).

[Malankazooie]

I've read or watched video where there is confusion/frustration about moving the sniper rifles and shotguns to the power weapon slot. On one hand I guess Bungie is addressing the issue where the shottys and snipers were overly used (to devastating effect) in pvp. On the other hand though, now the impression is why would you ever use a sniper or shotty now when you can use a Rocket Launcher, Heavy Machine Gun or the new Grenade Launcher?

BTW have you used the Grenade Launcher? I heard it's pretty sweet.

[Silencer]

Khellendros, on 21 July 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

Silencer, on 21 July 2017 - 06:15 AM, said:

Also, have I mentioned how hard it is to find ammo for the power weapons in the strike? Ammo in general seems to be in short supply during the boss fight, but power ammo drops are straight up rare. To the point where most people don't have any to use. Especially with sniper rifles and shotguns now being power weapons, this feels bad. (and the one shotgun I've tried had a max ammo cap of 14 rounds, to add to the problem considerably.) hopefully this is rectified. It made sense with rocket launchers, but this is different!

The cynic in me says it's purposefully rare to incentivise ammo-purchasing microtransactions (not that I've heard anything about that being a thing).

Heh, the cynic in me says the reason the beta is so small is that there's really not a lot more to show, and they don't want people to get upset when the beta is like 1/4 of the original game. >.> (not counting, of course, the for-money DLC that was deliberately cut out of the base game...)

But yeah, I imagine if they try to put Ammo Synths behind a paywall (i.e. Eververse, where said Ammo Synths would no doubt be *slightly* more expensive than the smallest denomination of Silver you can buy...seriously, fuck per-bulk-denomination-of-our-special-currency stores, if you're going to have a real money store just let me pay exactly what you are charging for the item in real money!) there would be a riot. I hope they know that. Given Glimmer is still in the game, I can't really see what else it would be used for, though, so take heart on that front.

[Silencer]

Malankazooie, on 21 July 2017 - 03:29 PM, said:

I've read or watched video where there is confusion/frustration about moving the sniper rifles and shotguns to the power weapon slot. On one hand I guess Bungie is addressing the issue where the shottys and snipers were overly used (to devastating effect) in pvp. On the other hand though, now the impression is why would you ever use a sniper or shotty now when you can use a Rocket Launcher, Heavy Machine Gun or the new Grenade Launcher?

BTW have you used the Grenade Launcher? I heard it's pretty sweet.

I have! It is a bit cumbersome to use (the projectiles travel very slowly), but it is by far the most bang-for-your-buck Power Weapon in the beta - especially on bosses. I like it. But I do wonder how it will stack up against the likes of Rocket Launchers. I have to assume rockets will have less splash damage, ergo making them more useful for bosses, while GLs will have less point damage and big splashes so using them on mobs or elite mooks is the way to go, which makes sense with the GLs being a bit harder to land on a single mobile target than just dropping it in the middle of a group...but I have this sneaking feeling that they can't be *that* differentiated, which will leave GLs as harder to use Rocket Launchers. >.> Given I haven't seen a rocket launcher to play with in the beta though, this is just speculation.


Further thoughts: the more I play, the more apparent it becomes that some weapons were born to be Kinetic and some Energy. SMGs burn far too much ammo to use as Kinetic. Scout Rifles drop too much in DPS to be used as Energy. Sidearms I haven't had any Kinetic ones to try, but I imagine there's a reason for that (namely they fit best as Energy). The others remain fairly versatile, though Assault Rifles tend to favour Kinetic a bit with their mid ROF-mid-damage variants (so far the only ones in the beta). HCs can go either way but feel a little underwhelming as Energy weapons.
This dynamic was the reason for my original unfavourable take on Scout Rifles. They're still not as good as the AR you start with, but a Kinetic Scout is much more useful than a Energy one (though ammo does seem to run thin when using it as a primary).

[Macros]

Started playing destony again there because this thread had been bumped.
Moving sniper rifle to power weapon sucks, and would be a deal breaker for me, I always try head shot the Knights and Captains before charging in with my rifle.
Power ammo is rare enough in Destiny one to remove this tactic for me

[Silencer]

Macros, on 21 July 2017 - 04:03 PM, said:

Started playing destony again there because this thread had been bumped.
Moving sniper rifle to power weapon sucks, and would be a deal breaker for me, I always try head shot the Knights and Captains before charging in with my rifle.
Power ammo is rare enough in Destiny one to remove this tactic for me

See, I can't be 100% sure that the ammo drop rate is *lower* than in Destiny 1, because the biggest ammo problem I've had in that game for the last two years has been "when will my ammo synth counter run down" or "do I want more special ammo or more heavy ammo right now". Actually needing ammo to drop was barely a thing.

But this leads to the root of my ammo issues: I said to my mate yesterday, "what is the point of mooks spawning if they aren't going to drop ammo?!" - because half of the point of mooks is to distract the player and the other half is to provide me with ammo. But without the synths, it reveals the true purpose of Power ammo drop scarcity. Artificial difficulty. The boss of the Strike is not difficult to kill. Having enough total ammo to bring him down is also rarely the issue. But having enough ammo to bring him down *quickly* IS. Which, like in Destiny 1, is because the boss fights are not smart, they are not interesting, they're just bigger dudes with a boatload of health. There aren't any gameplay mechanics, or anything more than rudimentary cover usage required. Much like Destiny's much touted "jumping puzzles", bosses are not difficult and they don't bring anything but the most rudimentary understanding of their namesake to the table. Hell, I was saying this back in Destiny 1 - even having a boss with a shield instead of a huge health pool would be a step up (they semi-delivered on this in Prison of Elders with the Cabal champion, whose shields even switched types each time they were depleted! A mechanic never to be seen or heard from again, sadly.) because it would reward players coordinating to keep damage on the boss going, preventing shields from regenerating (sadly missing in said Cabal boss fight) and shortening the fight considerably. Indeed, with a mechanic like this, they could actually have mooks spawn on a timer, instead of tied to the boss health levels, further encouraging players to organise and coordinate. But no. All we get are tanks - most of whom, are not even that mobile, if they aren't completely stationary.
And naturally, they all have automatic stomp-attacks that one-shot players who get too close (so forget bringing a shotgun to the fight, or using a Super that requires you to be close!).

It's this bad boss design that has continued to let Bungie down. I'm not sure if it's because of their apparent disdain for their player's skills and coordination (see: no matchmaking on Raids), or because they are lazy (see: the longer we can get away with this the more money we make, while reserving more exciting stuff for when people really do start to get over it), or because they just plain don't understand HOW to make more interesting encounters (given that there are other games to look at, this is a flimsy excuse, not to mention Elites in Halo literally had mechanics that said "better Elites have more shields, bring them down and the head still goes pop", and the final boss of Halo 2 was "wait for NPC to shoot him with Beam Rifle, then damage until shields return", which while not great game design are still better than "giant boss have giant health, derp"). I'm 99% sure they are better than that. Maybe it's because they're not used to having bosses at all, but it is NOT a hard game design philosophy to pick up and experiment with. And yes, I am ignoring some of the Raid bosses and mechanics because, while most of those are pretty basic too, the Raids are inaccessible to many people and are strictly end-game content. Which makes it more laughable, because some of the Raid mechanics might make the Strikes more respectable, but of course because the Raids are end-game they also need more/better/different mechanics to be respectable themselves.



FEH. Sorry about the random rant there, but the fact that this stuff appears unchanged from Destiny 1 makes me unhappy.

[Malankazooie]

Are there any cool new emotes? Not that they would sway one's decision to purchase Destiny 2, but sometimes it's the little things.

I can remember running one of the cooperative options (Raid, Strike etc) and between rounds I would activate my "dab" emote and one of the guys I was playing with would activate his Drake, "Hotline Bling" dance emote. For some reason I got a kick out of that. There was something absurd about barely escaping with our lives to come back out to the staging spot and stand in front of each other and activate those specific emotes. Like I said, sometimes it's the little things.

[Silencer]

Malankazooie, on 21 July 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

Are there any cool new emotes? Not that they would sway one's decision to purchase Destiny 2, but sometimes it's the little things.

I can remember running one of the cooperative options (Raid, Strike etc) and between rounds I would activate my "dab" emote and one of the guys I was playing with would activate his Drake, "Hotline Bling" dance emote. For some reason I got a kick out of that. There was something absurd about barely escaping with our lives to come back out to the staging spot and stand in front of each other and activate those specific emotes. Like I said, sometimes it's the little things.

Not that I've seen but they appear to have varied up the "sit" action between classes more. Titans take a knee, at least.