[Abyss]

Great ep....

I know everyone's all about the battle at the end, but honestly, while that was cool, i immediately rewatched Arya v Brienne three times and was practically on my feet cheering by the third. That was GLORIOUS.

Andorion, on 06 August 2017 - 05:12 AM, said:

..., in no way should it have been an easy victory for Jamie.

For whatever reason, my takeway explain was that Jaime caught The Reach entirely by surprise, with most of the army away where Dany wanted them.

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Secondly, the cure to Greyscale was really underwhelming - just cut t off? No one had tried that before? And for all the pus and gross stuff, Jorah did not really seem to have a problem - I mean his literal skin was cut off, that takes months to grow back.

There was some time compression there, but it was hardly easy and pretty clear almost everyone who had ever tried it had died. Also, the was the suggestion of magic or more likely alchemy to whatever Sam did with the stuff he smeared on once the removal was done, which may have reflected the whole 'dragons are back, magic is back' thing.

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...the entire presentation of Bran as someone who no longer knows how to talk to people properly is silly as he was fine when ice-Benjen dropped him off near the wall.

Actually the end of that scene was Bran embracing the role of Three-Eyed-Rave or something, so he took a power-up and went all freaky.

Malankazooie, on 07 August 2017 - 02:28 AM, said:

One thing that I saw right through though. So, Jon is showing crude drawings to Dany down in dragon glass caves. And they are crude. And then he points his torch onto very precise and accurate drawings of the Night King and the White Walkers. Who knew Jon was such a talented artist...

I don't think that's what actually happened but yeah it totally looked like that.

Andorion, on 07 August 2017 - 02:42 AM, said:

That battle was quite something... I would have thought that Dany would have preferred capturing the crops as opposed to destroying them though.

The Dothraki put on a really good showing in their first battle on Westeros and Drogon proved a ballista shot is not necessarily mortal. Also this spikes Cersei's big surprise and Dany will be more cautious from now on.

Yes and yes.
Nice to finally see why the Dothraki army is a big deal.

That said, with her Unsullied stuck at casterly Rock, Dany has no troops for a seige or urban battle. Not every enemy is going to be sitting on an open plain where mounted troops are at an advantage.

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Pretty sure Bronn saved Jaime. He will never shut up about how much gold he is owed.

Pretty sure you're right, unless it was Dickon.
But Jaime and Bronn being taken prisoner would make narrative sense at this point.

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Someone needs to kill Littlefinger.

Nah. he needs at least three more episodes of creepy ominous looks.

And he's totally going to manipulate Arya into going after Cersei. probably resulting in Brienne going after her and thus neither of them being around to protect Sansa.

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Davos is so jovial around Missandei

IKR!

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I did not totally understand Cersei's conversation with the Iron Bank - she asks for investment, and then says something about getting back things which belong to her.... what?

Pretty sure she meant the entire continent.

Seduce Goose, on 07 August 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

...
MORE TIMELINE SHENANIGANS!

Anyone done some calculation on how long it would take to get the Dothraki Army across or around southern Westeros to attack Jaime's army? Weeks? Either that was a very slow moving army or they took an incredible amount of time looting and resupplying at High Garden.

I think we're all just going to have to accept that the rest of the series is going to work this way.

Malankazooie, on 07 August 2017 - 01:38 PM, said:

There's been talk of spin-off shows, right? Please let there be one of an alternate timeline that explores the buddy dynamic between Jamie and Bronn. That would be television gold and a top winner for HBO.

Would watch.

But i suspect Dunk & Egg to be more likely.
... tho what i really want is Arya Stabs People.

[Nevyn]

Seduce Goose, on 07 August 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

MORE TIMELINE SHENANIGANS!

Anyone done some calculation on how long it would take to get the Dothraki Army across or around southern Westeros to attack Jaime's army? Weeks? Either that was a very slow moving army or they took an incredible amount of time looting and resupplying at High Garden.

Jamie's army was caught around Blackwater rush, which is actually fairly close to King's Landing, not in the reach itself. And the gold had already gotten back, but Jamie's army had to rush a harvest, gather it, then work their way back.

So there is ample TIME for a Dothraki landing. Where things get awkward is from Dragonstone, they would basically be landing and then goin on land AROUND King's landing, or going into Blackwater Bay. Which would make it very hard for them not to be noticed at all.

And going back an episode, Euron's fleet certainly gets around. Ambush a fleet on the way to Dorne, return to King's Landing, then sail all the way around the continent to attack the fleet carrying the unsullied. For any of the stuff this season to work, you have to assume a lot of time padding in between.


And all of that gets fine until you consider how absurdly slowly the night king has to be moving.

[Abyss]

Traveller, on 07 August 2017 - 08:16 PM, said:

That was a wish come true episode...

Sansa and Arya reunited, Arya water dancing in the courtyard (a mistake to reveal that ability to anyone, let alone Littlefinger) Dothraki taking out Westerosi knights, Drogon on the battlefield (clever to have shown the ballista effect previously to add some tension) and Jaime being the knight at heart and charging the Dragon.

Heh... that last bit was so on point (pun intended) and so obviously destined to go wrong.

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I know destroying the wagons was a dumb move but it was an absolutely beautiful shot when she did so!

Don't be too surprised when it turns out the Dothraki seized a whole lot of gold and food anyways. TV!!!!

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Anyone hear what Tyrion says when he first sees Jaime eyeing that lance?

Iirc from the cc, "Don't do it, you fucking idiot."

Coco with marshmallows, on 07 August 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

the Dothraki probably could have won the battle themselves - Bronn states they were going to overrun them before the dragon showed.

However, use of the dragon to create the first break in the line and then attack significant pockets of resistance means significantly fewer Dothraki casualties, meaning better for Dany in the long run.

Remember,this was just PART of the Lannister/Tarly army - the majority had already entered kings landing with the gold, or at least crossed the Blackwater - this was the straggling group that Tarly wanted to start flogging.

The bulk of the war is still to be fought.

All true, but it's not clear to me that the gold was back at KL yet, just that Cersei and the Bank rep were aware of the victory and that it was en route.

paran falcon, on 07 August 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

...Why is Theon still breathing? His fellow Iron Islanders know he must've gone coward to still be alive, one of them says as much. Are they that unsure of themselves that they think they need his royal blood/name to go on? I got the impression Iron Islanders weren't that way. It would be nice to know how much of his story Dany knows. She may have lost some allies but putting any faith or assets in his hands is a complete waste. And he wants to go try to get Yarra back?! Please! That doesn't help Dany's cause at all, if you ask me.
...

The Iron Men who found him were still from Yarra's faction. Not knowing what would happen next, executing their captured leader's brother would be a waste.

paran falcon, on 07 August 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

...
Also, forgot to mention: I love Arya SO MUCH. By far my favorite character through the 3 books I've read and the show as well. I'm torn about the sparring scene. On one hand, I agree with Traveller: don't show a possible opponent anything you don't have to. And Arya knows Littlefinger cannot be trusted. But on the other hand: I believe she sent a strong message to Littlefinger: her family is not to be betrayed any longer, they have the means to strike. Seeing her in action appeared to give him pause and it should have. Plus, he surely has gotten reports from the Twins and the Frey massacre. This may be the most apprehensive he's been for the whole show.

OH HELL YES.
That training scene... damn but that was AWESOME.

Khellendros, on 07 August 2017 - 09:55 PM, said:

I thought Littlefinger looked put off because Arya was wielding the dagger he gifted Bran.
...

Down South, on 07 August 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

Is no one else with me that dagger is important?

Terez, on 07 August 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

It's Valyrian steel. I expect she'll kill a White Walker or two with it.

paran falcon, on 07 August 2017 - 10:48 PM, said:

Down South, on 07 August 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

For sure. I think it's a extra special one though. I don't think Bran said who's it was but he asked the girls if they knew who it was. I'm just convinced it is even more so because of that and cause it was in the book Sam had. I think it's a key to something though. Possibly the key to killing the Night King himself.. like maybe not any ole Val will put him down permantly or it is required to gain entry to something under Dragonstone that will led to his ultimate defeat.

Now THAT is a premise I find interesting; that dagger and the Night King. What would be the reason for that one in particular? But if Arya took him out with that dagger using Faceless Man technique?! I think I would swoon!

Yeah, the dagger thing is becoming too obvious (and hamhandedly tv scripting-for-dummies) not to be important.

Tapper, on 08 August 2017 - 01:05 PM, said:

Primateus, on 07 August 2017 - 08:12 PM, said:

Terez, on 07 August 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

I thought the same thing. And it looked to me like they could have won that battle with the Dothraki alone; the dragon seemed excessive.

From a purely military point of view, you may be right. But I think the whole point of bringing the dragon was to send a message. I think it points back to when Olenna told her to stop thinking like a queen and start thinking like a dragon. Or something like that.

She sent a message, and I think the message was clearly received.

IIRC, Dothraki beating Westerosi in the books is logical because Martin makes clear that most Seven Kingdoms armies consist largely of under-equiped and mostly untrained levies (which also keeps the monopoly of violence firmly with the feudal order), knights and their retinues make up a relatively small part of the armies, but do most of the killing nonetheless. The Lannister army shown the past two episodes is a completely different beast: it should have kicked Dothraki butt.

Spoiler

Boring explanation: this Lannister army looked nothing like a levy, and all the more like drilled, professional infantry used to mass combat and maneuvering in formation. It is marching in step (a clear sign of formation drills), it is uniformly equiped, marches not in a big column but in seperate formations (pointing at the presence of a command structure all the way down to NCOs), seems capable of quickly adopting a formation, even when surprised.

Infantry that can hold in line historically speaking defeats cavalry almost all the time, as horses won't charge a solid mass of men but need a gap. If there is one, herd mentality takes over for the horses and they will pour through the gap, but no gap, no charge. There's plenty of examples of spectacularly failed cavalry charges precisely for this reason: Ney and the entire French cavalry spent most of Waterloo trying to charge the British squares without getting into melee once: the horses either refused to close or chose a way around/ between squares.

Even if the Dothraki would start with arrow fire, as a result of which the line would be partially thinned/pierced, the Lannisters are equiped with large shields, wear head- and shoulder armour and could thus probably withstand multiple barrages of arrow fire with very few casualties. I know I'd bet on the spear dudes.

Here, the dragon created a huge hole in the Lannister line, basically filling the role of field artillery, and that was the only reason why cavalry could win the day.

All points valid, but also...

There were a LOT of Dothraki, and the Lannister's formed a line, not a square, which takes more time and coordination/command. Even without the dragon they might have been flanked and chewed up. Dany's way was faster.
Also, while historically i believe the whole cavalry charge vs line of prepped troops with long pointy things is weighted towards the troops, there are a whole pile of factors that can swing things, including Dothraki tactics like jumping off their horses into a line and chopping heads off.

Malankazooie, on 08 August 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

More theories jumping around the internet. And that's that Three Eyed Raven Bran orchestrated the assassination on his younger self to get the whole thing popping off, knowing that it would put all of the future pieces in place so as to have the best chance to defeat the white walkers.

Seems pretty goofy to me. I think fans are getting too attached to the "I see everything that has ever happened" comment.

Goofy... or AWESOME.
But yeah, suggests way too much time travel to be practical.

Nevyn, on 08 August 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:

..."because tv".
...All in all though, I think I can enjoy the coolness factor and not sweat the realism. The show is now a runaway train of fan service and epic things towards the ending.

Yeah, i think this is going to be the key to enjoying the remainder of the show.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 11 August 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

Goofy... or AWESOME.
But yeah, suggests way too much time travel to be practical.

The precedent IS already kind of in play though...with Bran basically CREATING Hodor, so that young Bran had the vehicle that helped allow him to get to the North and the cave...so it's in the realm of possibility now more than it might have been previously.

[Nevyn]

Abyss, on 11 August 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

All true, but it's not clear to me that the gold was back at KL yet, just that Cersei and the Bank rep were aware of the victory and that it was en route.

Tarly reports to Jamie that the gold has made it to KL.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 11 August 2017 - 03:25 PM, said:

Abyss, on 11 August 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

Goofy... or AWESOME.
But yeah, suggests way too much time travel to be practical.

The precedent IS already kind of in play though...with Bran basically CREATING Hodor, so that young Bran had the vehicle that helped allow him to get to the North and the cave...so it's in the realm of possibility now more than it might have been previously.

True. Also that moment at the Tower where Bran almost sort of spoke to Ned.
No not impossible.
I go with ulikely, but possible.

Honestly if the entirety of the books or tv series come down to time travel shenanigans, i'm going to be annoyed. It's generally such a weak, poorly executed plot device.

Nevyn, on 11 August 2017 - 03:34 PM, said:

Abyss, on 11 August 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

All true, but it's not clear to me that the gold was back at KL yet, just that Cersei and the Bank rep were aware of the victory and that it was en route.

Tarly reports to Jamie that the gold has made it to KL.

Oops, yah, forgot that. Was still replaying Arya v Brienne in my head.

[Coco with marshmallows]

Abyss, on 11 August 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

Oops, yah, forgot that. Was still replaying Arya v Brienne in my head.

Apology graciously accepted

[Terez]

Here 'tis:

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Daenerys demands loyalty from the surviving Lannister soldiers; Jon heeds Bran's warning about White Walkers on the move; Cersei vows to vanquish anyone or anything that stands in her way.

[worry]

With that title, I fear for our favorite mad wildling.

[Terez]

I loved how they slipped in the annulment of Rhaegar's marriage to Elia and his marriage to Lyanna. Did it really go over Sam's head?

"Thought you might still be rowing." Fanservice BS but I laughed.

[Binder of Demons]

Tonight was the third time a character has used the phrase, "I wish you good fortune in the wars to come". No idea if there is any significance but it just seems oddly specific a phrase. I already had it in my head before tonight, so now I'm convinced they're trying to draw attention to something.

[Nevyn]

Ok so Bronn really did tackle Jamie off of horse. Then pulled him from the bottom of the river and got him a mile downstream unseen. Both in armor, and Jamie with his sword and a gold hand. My suspension of disbelief is faltering.

You'd think Gendry is there to rediscover Valyrian steel at some point, weird they are making him a fighter.

Best part of the episode is Littlefinger setting up Arya v Sansa.

[Nevyn]

Terez, on 14 August 2017 - 02:22 AM, said:

I loved how they slipped in the annulment of Rhaegar's marriage to Elia and his marriage to Lyanna. Did it really go over Sam's head?

"Thought you might still be rowing." Fanservice BS but I laughed.

That would mean little to him as of yet as he doesn't know they had a kid. He just needs to know it later so when Jon's parentage comes out he can prove he's trueborn.

[Malankazooie]

Sam: "We can all become slathering, murderous imbeciles enthralled to evil incarnate as long as we can have access to the full records of High Septon Maynard's 15,782 shits!"
Gilly: "Steps. That number was steps"

Really bummed about Dickon (aka Billy Bones from Black Sails). I was hoping he would have bent a knee. What a waste of an excellent actor. They ladies find him easy on the eyes too.

[Tatterdemalion]

Weird episode. Lots of great small scenes. I loved the Winterfell intrigue, reminded me of the first season. Great footage of Drogon again. I love the one him just lifting off after dropping Dany off. A couple nuggets towards the end game for Jon/Dany - as in, Drogon's cool with Jon (cuz he Targy) and Gilly IDing Jon as bonefide Targ child, legitimately.

Problems stem from the odd plotting. A lot of people working together to create a completely weird and unrealistic scenarios of 7 key badasses heading north of the wall at AN ARMY OF THE DEAD. Like, they deserve to die. Be better if they had to rush to the aid of Eastwatch and managed to snatch one, rather than this Mission Impossible plan. THAT SAID: bad plotting has never gotten me so excited. Can't wait to see Hound, Thoros, One-eye, Too-handsome, Jon, Hi-again Bye-again and Brienne's Secret Lover kick some ass.

The main thing this season proves: when you create a show that enmeshes so many characters IT GETS WEIRD when the meet again because so much stuff has gone done you get exchanges like Tyrion and Davos upon landing on the shores of King's Landing. Everyone's done something to someone... but luckily we get the White Walkers superseding everyone's history. Convenient, but kinda frustrating since it takes away some awesome story weaving potential.

Littlefinger better not go down like a chump.

This post has been edited by Tatterdemalion: 14 August 2017 - 04:20 AM

[worry]

Down South, on 13 August 2017 - 10:47 PM, said:

worry, on 13 August 2017 - 10:34 PM, said:

With that title, I fear for our favorite mad wildling.

Yep...

Soon as I saw Eastwatch got its own animation I breathed a sigh of relief.

[Nevyn]

Down South, on 14 August 2017 - 03:38 AM, said:

Also idk why Gilly really needs the marriage info. Surely if Bran knows about ToJ he knows about marriage also. Show Gilly=book Reed? Fuck if I know.

If no one believes anyone in the north about Bran or walkers, who would believe him alone about Jon's parents.

Could take a mixture of dragon riding, statements from Bran, and the secret marriage document to make anything official. Or this is all for fans and Jon will never have to claim his heritage anyway ...

[QuickTidal]

Malankazooie, on 14 August 2017 - 03:53 AM, said:

Really bummed about Dickon (aka Billy Bones from Black Sails).

Also Sir Percival on MERLIN.

[paran falcon]

Nevyn, on 14 August 2017 - 03:16 AM, said:

Ok so Bronn really did tackle Jamie off of horse. Then pulled him from the bottom of the river and got him a mile downstream unseen. Both in armor, and Jamie with his sword and a gold hand. My suspension of disbelief is faltering.

So very much this! Could not believe they tried to stretch logic that far.

Am I the only one to have the thought that Jon's "mission" could be accomplished SO much faster (time is of the essence, is it not??) with a dragon ride and snatch of an undead creature to prove their existence to the rest of the world? The way Jon and Dany's relationship is progressing, it doesn't seem to me like too much of a stretch that she may have been talked into doing so. Then, at the same time, she gets to witness firsthand the nature and size of the force coming against them all. Jon's way, while cool for the show, is going to take entirely too long.

In fact, in the bonus material after the credits, the showrunners refer to when the Night's Watch sent a (still moving) hand of an undead to King's Landing but by the time it arrived, it had completely rotted away and was no longer moving.

Also, I'm not sure I like how they've portrayed Arya being so easily manipulated. This also feels too rushed after they went to pretty great lengths to show her being taught to learn and observe for a decent length of time before taking action. Its true, I'm biased when it comes to Arya as she is my favorite character but still, I'm not sure this fits with her development.

[QuickTidal]

paran falcon, on 14 August 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Am I the only one to have the thought that Jon's "mission" could be accomplished SO much faster (time is of the essence, is it not??) with a dragon ride and snatch of an undead creature to prove their existence to the rest of the world?

^^This. I expect this is because it would skip things along too fast for HBO's liking....but yeah. "Don't believe me? Let's hop on Drogon and head north." Dany sees undead army on the march. Changes mind.

Like fuck. It's such a simple plot point that it bothers me that it didn't happen already.