[Briar King]

Deleted

This post has been edited by .-‘: 05 October 2021 - 11:29 PM

[acesn8s]

I've watched through episode 9. I'm going to finish the series, there's some plot hooks dangling that I think have potential.

I think they've made Danny the most whiny monk in the history of TV. In the first few episodes I found the Meecham side stories a bit annoying. They've gotten better.

Spoiler

I'm picking up on a Spies Like Us vibe now that the other monk showed up. I'm guessing his Danny's buddy and possibly a "True" Iron Fist. Looking forward to episode 10 tonight.

[WinterPhoenix]

So I just finished this series and while I would say it's the weakest of the 4 shows individually it was still leagues better than some of the crap on TV, it also did the job of hyping me up for The Defenders rather well tbh. At any rate those abysmal pre-Release reviews are frankly ridiculous, even the first few episodes which are inarguably weaker - it gets stronger as it get's into it's stride - don't deserve those ratings. Danny Rand is the least likeable of the 4, certainly to begin with, which is ironic as he returns wanting simply to be liked as Danny Rand and not used as the Iron Fist, unfortunately he comes off as whiny more than anything else. Itimproves as the series moves forward, though it never goes away entirely, honestly I think this is a purposeful element of his character, in some ways he is still a 10 year old child wracked by survivors guilt over the death of his parents. The fight scenes are not Daredevil levels of quality, but nether are they truly awful - though I can understand some accusations of blandness early on - the problem is Daredevil set a very high standard on that front to which all the other series have been judged and found wanting. The series also suffers from not having a Tennant, D'Onofrio or Ali level performance, I think David Wenham is very good in his role but he' s not up the standards of the aforementioned here. None of the cast is, but they are not terrible in their roles either, it is solidly acted throughout and while it's understandably disappointing to not have that 1 truly stellar performance it isn't a death knell by any stretch of the imagination.

Honestly, I'm genuinely at a loss to explain the awful pre-Release reviews, even relative to the Marvel/Netflix catalogue it simply does not warrant what I can only describe as such hyperbole having actually seen it. I make no secret of the fact that I am a huge Marvel fan, fanboy might even be warranted, at this point I believe it is safe to assume I'll watch pretty much anything with the Marvel moniker attached to it and probably overrate it simply because I enjoy watching all things Marvel. However, the reviews in question have the feel of going the opposite direction and attacking it with unreasonable fervour. I'm not sure why tbh, but it does also feel as though some people out there have been hating on this show ever since they cast Finn Jones - he wouldn't have been my first choice either, but not for the reasons that have seen Finn himself come under fire merely for accepting such an opportunity. I would suggest anyone put off by the early reviews watch it themselves to decide, I doubthere'll be too many people lauding this as the best Marvel/Netflix effort, but damn if there aint a million worse shows on TV.


At any rate, cannot wait for The Defenders now, really interested to see how all these explosive elements mix. Hoping for a couple of classic Marvel misunderstanding fights, Iron Fist punching Cage across the room etc

This post has been edited by WinterPhoenix: 21 March 2017 - 02:06 AM

[Morgoth]

Part of why I found the first couple of episodes so annoying was just how stupid the main character acted. He's not retarded. He's not an elf. He spent his first 10 years in the real world, and it's not like monks aren't people too. His shock and anger at not being believed is just flabbergasting. Of course they don't believe him. Any reasonable person would have figured that out right from the start and approached the situation in that light.

Obviously, I was swearing at him to contact a goddamn lawyer, and when he finally did things got much better.

[WinterPhoenix]

Morgoth, on 21 March 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

Part of why I found the first couple of episodes so annoying was just how stupid the main character acted. He's not retarded. He's not an elf. He spent his first 10 years in the real world, and it's not like monks aren't people too. His shock and anger at not being believed is just flabbergasting. Of course they don't believe him. Any reasonable person would have figured that out right from the start and approached the situation in that light.

Obviously, I was swearing at him to contact a goddamn lawyer, and when he finally did things got much better.

Yeah I know those first 2 episodes were so frustrating in that regard! The absolute worst part was when

Spoiler

The doctor finally believes he is Danny, and instead of just playing on this to get out he legit starts rambling about other dimensions and Iron Fists like the doctor isn't going to just dose him up again!!!

yeah that shit was frustrating. It did get alot better after that.

[Morgoth]

They could just make the argument that he's not particularly bright I suppose, but I'm sure they'll make him some amazing business man given time.

[Tsundoku]

Morgoth, on 21 March 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

... contact a goddamn lawyer, and when he finally did things got much better.

This is not a phrase heard very often.

[Morgoth]

Captain Needa, on 21 March 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 21 March 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

... contact a goddamn lawyer, and when he finally did things got much better.

This is not a phrase heard very often.

That's because people are fools.

[acesn8s]

Watched episodes 10 and 11.

Swing and miss on my theory.

I agree that it's not as bad as the reviewers make it seem. I think they took too long introducing the bad guys and getting to the confrontations. It would also have been cool to slow the Meecham plot down and done a reveal in the last episode or two.

Still love Madam Gao as a supporting villain.

So, how are Monks sealed off from the world for 15 years at a stretch so adept at technology?

[Nevyn]

I started out liking it ok. Clueless Danny was a bit awkward but there seemed to be potential in the early buildup, but the way the reason resolves was underwhelming. Also thought they used too much Claire. There is a limit to how many "everyone I know it's a hero" comments I can bear. In some ways it felt like they tried to put two seasons worth of development into one so they could get on with Defenders. I didn't like what the Howard stuff did to the story, and the fight quality actually decreased from midseason on.

[acesn8s]

Finished last night as well. Ending was dumb. I agree with Briar King, I liked Colleen's character and plot lines more than Danny and the Meechams.

[WinterPhoenix]

Frankly, from the outset when the Netflix Defenders intentions were first known I expected at least one of the 4 to be somewhat below par - though I thought it would be JJ for sure - and I never expected their best to be as good as it has been. In the grand scheme I am still mightily impressed by the TV wing of the MCU, I cannot deny that this was disappointing in a relative manner though.

That being said I stick to my guns, those early reviews are astoundingly hyperbolic in how bad they claim the show to be. Even relatively they are nothing close to a fair representation in my view. You only have to look at the mountains of rubbish that fill up TV to see this, flaws for sure, but it's eminently watchable at worst.

I'm not sure that the fight scenes did get more bland as the story progressed, I'd be more inclined to say that perhaps they did not change enough if anything. No idea if it's true but I know that Finn Jones has claimed he didn't have as much time as he'd liked for filming the fight scenes, could just be excuses though. Agree with you all about the ending, was kinda stupid, would've made so much more sense for the ending to be some sort of Defenders tie-in or least hinting at such. I thought Claire's introduction was terrible in this series, but after that I felt she was actually quite good as she always has been (I too wonder why she never seems to mention JJ when she hints at DD and Cage) so I'm none too bothered about all the 'I know so many heroes' stuff - suspension of disbelief is stretched much further in other directions. The Meachum storyline did get fairly convoluted, I honestly thought David Wenham as Harald Meachum was probably the best performance in the whole series though so I didn't mind it as much as some of you. I did like Coleen as well, saw the whole Hand 'betrayal' coming from a mile away though - I know in the comics Colleen's father was killed by the hand, I wonder if this will be explored at any point. Madame Gao does the sinister, mysterious shtick very well as always tbh.

Seems like Defenders will be helmed by the same two who were in charge for Daredevil season 2, will be interesting to see how all 4 characters are handled outside of their main series for sure.

[Nevyn]

WinterPhoenix, on 22 March 2017 - 03:44 PM, said:

Frankly, from the outset when the Netflix Defenders intentions were first known I expected at least one of the 4 to be somewhat below par - though I thought it would be JJ for sure - and I never expected their best to be as good as it has been. In the grand scheme I am still mightily impressed by the TV wing of the MCU, I cannot deny that this was disappointing in a relative manner though.

That being said I stick to my guns, those early reviews are astoundingly hyperbolic in how bad they claim the show to be. Even relatively they are nothing close to a fair representation in my view. You only have to look at the mountains of rubbish that fill up TV to see this, flaws for sure, but it's eminently watchable at worst.

I'm not sure that the fight scenes did get more bland as the story progressed, I'd be more inclined to say that perhaps they did not change enough if anything. No idea if it's true but I know that Finn Jones has claimed he didn't have as much time as he'd liked for filming the fight scenes, could just be excuses though. Agree with you all about the ending, was kinda stupid, would've made so much more sense for the ending to be some sort of Defenders tie-in or least hinting at such. I thought Claire's introduction was terrible in this series, but after that I felt she was actually quite good as she always has been (I too wonder why she never seems to mention JJ when she hints at DD and Cage) so I'm none too bothered about all the 'I know so many heroes' stuff - suspension of disbelief is stretched much further in other directions. The Meachum storyline did get fairly convoluted, I honestly thought David Wenham as Harald Meachum was probably the best performance in the whole series though so I didn't mind it as much as some of you. I did like Coleen as well, saw the whole Hand 'betrayal' coming from a mile away though - I know in the comics Colleen's father was killed by the hand, I wonder if this will be explored at any point. Madame Gao does the sinister, mysterious shtick very well as always tbh.

Seems like Defenders will be helmed by the same two who were in charge for Daredevil season 2, will be interesting to see how all 4 characters are handled outside of their main series for sure.

My issue is not with the Meachem performance, it is what the character did to the storyline. Its an origin season with a hero still trying to figure out what he wants to be, and it gets muddled in with 3 different foes who are simultaneously allies and opponents. And some of the stuff with his plans stretches credulity.

Spoiler

As for the fights, early in the season you get the challenge fights, then you get the drunken boxing and other fights. You have the mass fights to get out of the compound later, and then a lot of kicking men with guns. The penultimate episode has a couple decent fights, and the final one doesn't really have any.

You get down to the finale and you have Danny Rand forgetting that he knows Kung Fu to make a fight with Meachem seem tense.

I didn't really have a problem with any of the performances in this show, nor the direction. It was just a somewhat clumsy, muddled story

[WinterPhoenix]

Ah yeah, that I'll give you, the whole Meachum plot was needlessly convoluted in places for sure, and that scene at the end

Spoiler

With Joy speaking to Davos.

suggests it isn't over just yet.

RE: the whole fights/choreography issue.

Spoiler

All of those fights you mention are from the 6th episode onwards, when I said that they get less bland I just meant the early episodes, i.e first 4 or so, were more bland than that which came after. I agree that the challenges and the drunken boxing are probably the best the show has to offer. And I also agree that that whole finale fight with Meachum was just frickin' dumb! Enough to really mar the coolness of the whole Iron Fist scene in the office just before.

I am actually with you on the whole story being a bit muddled and quite messy in places and certainly handled clumsily. It's definitely the weakest of the 4 - and once again I still find it hard to believe that this wasn't Jessica Jones - my main point is simply that even with these obvious problems it just isn't as bad as those pre-release reviews would suggest. Even the first few episodes they actually got to see.

[acesn8s]

I don't like the whole untrained Iron Fist angle now hat I've thought about it. How is he going to hang with Cage and JJ in the Defenders? They are going to have to do a rapid power up.

Anyone get the impressions that Gao might be a rogue Iron Fist who joined the Hand? That knowing smirk when she talks to him just makes me think she's got a really cool ace up her sleeve.

[the broken]

They had to have a somewhat underpowered Iron Fist, because otherwise in the Defenders he would make, for instance, Daredevil, irrelevant. 'I can do everything you can do, but better!'

Danny lacks killer instinct, which is a problem for a 'living weapon'

Quote

Part of why I found the first couple of episodes so annoying was just how stupid the main character acted. He's not retarded. He's not an elf. He spent his first 10 years in the real world, and it's not like monks aren't people too. His shock and anger at not being believed is just flabbergasting. Of course they don't believe him. Any reasonable person would have figured that out right from the start and approached the situation in that light.

This was perfectly plausible to me. He's been dreaming about coming home since the crash, and these two were his best friends. He's spent his entire life being instantly recognisable, either as Danny Rand or the outsider in Kun Lun and then the ironfist. Correct, no, but plausible for the character.

Quote

Seems like Defenders will be helmed by the same two who were in charge for Daredevil season 2, will be interesting to see how all 4 characters are handled outside of their main series for sure.

Oh dear. That was the weakest one so far.

[QuickTidal]

My thoughts are….as bad as critics and viewers largely say it is.

The acting is largely meh (only Jessica Henwick is really any good), and Finn Jones CANNOT carry a lead role. He’s the beigest of beige and could not keep me interested if he tried. The guy who plays Ward Meachum is about a hundred times more interesting than this yahoo, and even he isn't all that great.

Madame Gao is still awesome tho.

The fight choreography is really awful. Even Henwick’s sequences which are faster than Jones scenes alone…are not great. I don’t know if Charlie Cox just got better training, or the DAREDEVIL directors just are better than the ones on IRON FIST….but watching the fights on this show is like watching seniors fight slowly at a retirement community.

The storyline has no REAL villains for a LONG ass time. Like I get that the Meachams are supposed to be the villains early on, with the Hand at play in the background…but goddamn it doesn’t work and you're left with the cheese in the wind Danny plot.

Also, Danny....when you DON'T spend your first convo with the Meachum's calling out something only they and you would know/remember from your childhood...I automatically assume you're a fucking dullard. That's like "Remember me" 101.

The music choices are awful. I know that’s a silly thing to focus on..but whoever worked on the music selection for this show needs to be fired. Where DAREDEVIL, JESSICA JONES, and LUKE CAGE all did really well in this category, IRON FIST fails in almost every instance, and at times had me grinding my goddamned teeth.

The plot progression is stunted, and wonky, and all over the place. It feels like this show would have worked better if they’d spent the first 3 or 4 eps in KunLun and showed what happened to Danny as he grew up, and his training to hold the Gate…and THEN jumped to him returning to his old city…as it is we are thrown in with a guy whose entire missing backstory is played off like it’s some important stuff that we will unravel slowly as if that’s an important way to do that. It’s not. And it serves to make the story a disjointed mess that can’t tell what it wants to be about for too long. It’s not organic like DAREDEVIL was…the slow build to eventual hero. This is instead “Supposed hero doesn’t have a clue what to do and how to do it (is a fucking dullard), and is aptly both afraid of what he left behind, unguarded...and ignorant/arrogant of that too”.

This is being called Marvel’s biggest misfire…and I would have to agree. The show is not very watchable in my books. It’s one of those shows that you put on, and then play on your phone or tablet and just hope your brain drinks in the important elements. But when you can count the “important to the DEFENDERS” stuff on one hand…that’s not good.

I went in with an open mind, and assumed the critics and viewers who didn't like it were exaggerating....I found they may have been a little over the top in their hatred of it...but I found myself agreeing with most of their reasoning.

[Vengeance]

Yeah I didn't like it very much either. I just finished the last episode and it pretty much was a mess. I don't have to much to add to everyone else.

[Vengeance]

I guess with the ending scene we are suppose to care about what happens to a mysterious place that has never really been shown and is inhabited by fucking kung fu experts. Who for some reason never explained only have one defender? Seriously if there are fighting against some kind of horrible enemy then shouldn't they have a team of Defenders....

Still there was nothing to make me care about in the show. At one point I found myself rooting for Howard. Danny was a moron. The sister (joy) was so so but then at the end she is letting her self be convinced to join the Hand (after what they did to her ) are you fucking kidding me. Just retarded.

[WinterPhoenix]

Vengeance, on 27 March 2017 - 07:19 PM, said:

I guess with the ending scene we are suppose to care about what happens to a mysterious place that has never really been shown and is inhabited by fucking kung fu experts. Who for some reason never explained only have one defender? Seriously if there are fighting against some kind of horrible enemy then shouldn't they have a team of Defenders....

Still there was nothing to make me care about in the show. At one point I found myself rooting for Howard. Danny was a moron. The sister (joy) was so so but then at the end she is letting her self be convinced to join the Hand (after what they did to her ) are you fucking kidding me. Just retarded.

Erm, where is Joy convinced to join the hand? That convo right at the end is with Davos, Danny's supposed friend from K'un Lun, he is not Hand. Also K'un Lun only has one Iron Fist, but I highly doubt all the other kung fu experts would simply sit back and let themselves be destroyed should the Iron Fist fail, it's perfectly logical (well comic book logic at any rate) that there can be only one Iron Fist at a time. Davos is shown to be a damn good fighter, and repeatedly asks Danny to come back and help him defend the pass, i.e. they defend it together.

Nonetheless Danny was a moron lol