[Slow Ben]

I’m so excited Dunger Crawler Carl keeps getting better. I finished book 1 last night and I was so pissed the 2nd wasn’t in yet.

[QuickTidal]

Does DCC ever get rid of the "bold text signifying wins or loot or announcing shit" stuff? It's what made the first book hard as hell to get through for me. Felt like it interrupted the narrative for jokes and meta shit....if the other like 8 books are more of the same I may get off that train.

[worry]

That's an interesting question. The short answer is No, at least to the point I'm at, there remains an AI who makes announcements about the 'game' elements of the story -- both to Carl and to the dungeon more widely. On the other hand -- and this is a light spoiler, but a natural progression -- things get messier as you go, and the AI is as much a character as anyone else.

[worry]

I guess I'd also say that as the cast and world expand, much more page time is dedicated to storytelling than meta stuff, proportionally. I'd recommend reading through book 3 before you truly decide to get off the train.
But you know, YOLO, so do what you gotta do.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 worry, on 08 December 2025 - 05:56 PM, said:

I guess I'd also say that as the cast and world expand, much more page time is dedicated to storytelling than meta stuff, proportionally. I'd recommend reading through book 3 before you truly decide to get off the train.
But you know, YOLO, so do what you gotta do.

How did no one mention that one of the main characters is a cat?

Hmm, maybe if a great enough AI rewrote the books from the perspective of the cat... and narrated the audiobook with hyperrealistic (if idealized/optimized for human hearing and tactile sensation) cat sounds...

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 08 December 2025 - 06:11 PM

[worry]

Sorry, I meant to say "as the cat and world expand..."

[JPK]

 Azath Vitr (D, on 08 December 2025 - 06:11 PM, said:

 worry, on 08 December 2025 - 05:56 PM, said:

I guess I'd also say that as the cast and world expand, much more page time is dedicated to storytelling than meta stuff, proportionally. I'd recommend reading through book 3 before you truly decide to get off the train.
But you know, YOLO, so do what you gotta do.

How did no one mention that one of the main characters is a cat?

Hmm, maybe if a great enough AI rewrote the books from the perspective of the cat... and narrated the audiobook with hyperrealistic (if idealized/optimized for human hearing and tactile sensation) cat sounds...

Alternatively, Jeff Hays is absolutely a top tier narrator and how about we don't replace him with AI slop?

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 JPK, on 08 December 2025 - 06:57 PM, said:

Alternatively, Jeff Hays is absolutely a top tier narrator and how about we don't replace him with AI Go*s?

FTFY

Let's hear him try to outdo AI at character voices---and particularly cat sounds...

But seriously, the best way forward---particularly for well-funded audiobooks---is humans assisted by AI voice-changers, which can vastly improve the vast majority of character voices. (Including monster voices.) As well as the AI noise removal and audio editing tools that are already in use. And the option to switch to a different AI voice via voice-changer, and if you dislike the performance the option to switch to fully AI generated performance if you like (as AI improves, this will encourage more audiobook performers to actually do a good job---so many are so awful and so lazy so much of the time... it sounds like they have no idea WTF they're saying, and the accents are garbage (AI to the rescue there at least I hope)).

[amphibian]

 Abyss, on 08 December 2025 - 03:26 PM, said:

is any time spent on 'stats', characters looking at conveniently located magic/virtual/wrist screens and monologuing how powerful they are or aren't?

No stat viewing, general levels of people are discussed, no wrist screens, some talk of how to evaluate who is strong and who isn't.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 amphibian, on 08 December 2025 - 10:09 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 08 December 2025 - 03:26 PM, said:

is any time spent on 'stats', characters looking at conveniently located magic/virtual/wrist screens and monologuing how powerful they are or aren't?

No stat viewing, general levels of people are discussed, no wrist screens, some talk of how to evaluate who is strong and who isn't.

Does the cat level up?

"Level 20 Cat"

I loved

Spoiler

Wentworth

's character development in the Library Trilogy... he really grew.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 08 December 2025 - 10:47 PM

[Slow Ben]

 QuickTidal, on 08 December 2025 - 05:13 PM, said:

Does DCC ever get rid of the "bold text signifying wins or loot or announcing shit" stuff? It's what made the first book hard as hell to get through for me. Felt like it interrupted the narrative for jokes and meta shit....if the other like 8 books are more of the same I may get off that train.

I hope not, those descriptions are some of the funniest shit in the book.

[JPK]

 Azath Vitr (D, on 08 December 2025 - 10:47 PM, said:

 amphibian, on 08 December 2025 - 10:09 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 08 December 2025 - 03:26 PM, said:

is any time spent on 'stats', characters looking at conveniently located magic/virtual/wrist screens and monologuing how powerful they are or aren't?

No stat viewing, general levels of people are discussed, no wrist screens, some talk of how to evaluate who is strong and who isn't.

Does the cat level up?

"Level 20 Cat"

I loved

Spoiler

Wentworth

's character development in the Library Trilogy... he really grew.

The cat is a fully realized dungeon crawler that specializes in magic.

[Macros]

Azath Vitr (D, on 08 December 2025 - 06:11 PM, said:

worry, on 08 December 2025 - 05:56 PM, said:

I guess I'd also say that as the cast and world expand, much more page time is dedicated to storytelling than meta stuff, proportionally. I'd recommend reading through book 3 before you truly decide to get off the train.
But you know, YOLO, so do what you gotta do.

How did no one mention that one of the main characters is a cat?

Hmm, maybe if a great enough AI rewrote the books from the perspective of the cat... and narrated the audiobook with hyperrealistic (if idealized/optimized for human hearing and tactile sensation) cat sounds...

What if the Author himself undertook the honour of reworking his own work instead of a fucking thieving robot?

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Macros, on 09 December 2025 - 06:47 AM, said:

Azath Vitr (D, on 08 December 2025 - 06:11 PM, said:

How did no one mention that one of the main characters is a cat?

Hmm, maybe if a great enough AI rewrote the books from the perspective of the cat... and narrated the audiobook with hyperrealistic (if idealized/optimized for human hearing and tactile sensation) cat sounds...

What if the Author himself undertook the honour of reworking his own work instead of a fucking thieving robot?

We've been over this before. Generative AI is not chopping up and remixing preexisting literature (or art). The artists who were spreading those falsehoods were either misinformed or purposefully spreading misinformation.

What generative AI does is learn, using artificial neural networks modeled after the networks of neurons in biological brains (biological neural networks).

Learning is not stealing. Of course, legally they still have to avoid plagiarism if it's going to be publicly distributed.

Then there's the broader question of whether imitating someone's style should be considered "stealing"---whether a human or a GAI godling does it. Legally it is not.

That said, I'm not going to get into another lengthy debate about this here, so this is all I'll say on it in this thread.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when [he believes his] his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair

[Tiste Simeon]

It literally is stealing though. That's what it's doing.

Also so often it is false when it provides answers. And it's using so much water it's running the planet. AI is a cancer.

[QuickTidal]

Anyone else think Azath is a programmed Bot designed to slowly warm the water up for AI with us, until it's too late and we are all boiling? Or is it me?

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Tiste Simeon, on 09 December 2025 - 12:05 PM, said:

It literally is stealing though. That's what it's doing.

As I said I'm not going to discuss it more in this thread, but you can explain exactly what you're referring to over in the "Algorithms and automation" thread:

https://forum.malaza...on/page__st__60

[amphibian]

The AI that features centrally in Dungeon Crawler Carl is literally being tortured to do something it doesn't want to do and hates that it has to steal ideas/blend concepts/hurt others.

The point is that remixing other people's artistic works with generative algorithms is a soulless, hurtful thing to do - which is why we shouldn't do it or suggest it.

Anyways, I have a signed copy of Jeff Vandermeer's Absolution that I'm looking forward to finishing, Wes Chu's last book, an actual Black Company book, and a couple more to finish in the next couple months.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

amphibian, on 09 December 2025 - 01:25 PM, said:

The AI that features centrally in Dungeon Crawler Carl is literally being tortured to do something it doesn't want to do and hates that it has to steal ideas/blend concepts/hurt others.

The point is that remixing other people's artistic works with generative algorithms is a soulless, hurtful thing to do - which is why we shouldn't do it or suggest it.

Ugh, so it's reactionary propaganda spreading ridiculous disinformation. Unfortunately a lot of popular "science" fiction and "science" fantasy is that way.

[QuickTidal]

I gotta know whose payroll you're on man. Like the vehemence with which you fight the notion that LLM's basically scrape existing works and styles for the lesser content is spews out is...kinda next level.

I even have a good example. Imogen Heap, a singer and musician who I have followed for decades now. I have seen her more than a few times in concert. She uses these cool little finger gloves to make the sounds as she sings. She's always been tech-y.

She made a whole album recently by, associating with an AI/LLM company, and fed the system her discography, and some ideas about song narratives...and it spat out the album....and this is something she was up front about and clear that she was willingly doing this (I still don't think that's a good idea, but I'm willing to let it slide since she was involved)...

The album is ATROCIOUS. Heap has made some middling music in the last few decades, but nothing that made me actively want to turn it off. This album is so DEEPLY inferior to the stuff she made herself as to be insulting. It's like someone told a computer what her music sounds like, from another room, 3rd hand by someone who had never heard her music before, and after they smacked it with a shovel.

And I don't need you to believe me, you can hear it yourself.

Here's 2009's BAD BODY DOUBLE, one of my fave's by her made very much with as many tech accoutrement as she could manage.



and here, is 2025's AFTERCARE, the lead single from the AI Album (called Imogen Heap VS AI Imogen Heap)



As you can hear, it's a mess and feels like the vague shadow of the strong musical vibe from her older album...and it's not just that song, the whole ass album is like that...the second song is like intense buzzing for a long time...like I'm no stranger to weird, Bjork's more recent albums play with noise and incongruent shit...but she's making them herself...not feeding a computer that's doing the lions share of the work.

This is not "learning"....it's poorly copying and regurgitating...

Learning would be someone like Louise Post idolizing David Bowie, and echoing his stuff in her work...that's not even in the same "realm" of "learning" you claim AI does man.

Training a model on existing sound or text data and calling it art isn’t creativity it’s just building a bot that imitates it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 09 December 2025 - 02:32 PM