[Imperial Historian]

I've always had the same problem with wolfe, it's interesting sort of, but I can never maintain an interest, finishing his books always seems to take ages. I've had the 2nd volume of his book of the new sun sitting on my shelf for a long time, but can never motivate myself to read it.

[amphibian]

ch said:

I read _The Wizard Knight_ series and just don't get the acclaim. His wiki entry states, "He is noted for his dense, allusion-rich prose..." I thought it was rather lite, myself. I hasten to add: to each his/her own.

He really writes on two levels: one on which you read a story and are entertained by it (every author should do this), and another one, in which he combines an Odyssey-like journey with mythology (Norse, Greek, or Egyptian) and the Christian redemption of the self. From his interviews and works, I consider him a strong Christian, but Wolfe avers from spreading an agenda through his stories and you really have to work to pin him down. The unreliable narrator technique he uses is pretty awesome and really makes you think while you're reading.

If you do some digging, you may be surprised by just how much of his stuff can be unpacked into the worlds of theology, philosophy and pure world-building or character history.

I strongly recommend that you read his works in this order:
1) The Wizard Knight (Two books)
2) Latro in the Mist (This is three books: Soldier of the Mist, Soldier of Arete and the new Soldier of Sidon)
3) The Book of the New Sun (This is four books)
4) The Urth of the New Sun (One novella)
5) The Book of the Long Sun (Four books, I think)
6) The Book of the Short Sun (Two books; I have not actually read these yet)
7) Some short stories if you like. Not necessary (Personally, I disliked The Island of Dr. Death - even though the collection won a Nebula)

[Dag]

I read Wolfe's Book of the New Sun some 15 years ago, and it remained in my memory as a good (and slightly bizarre) series I literally swallowed in one long gulp. Usually, the books I liked in my childhood/youth sooner or later end up on my re-read pile. But I'm still reluctant to re-read Wolfe; I can't really put my finger on it, but I've got this feeling that if I read the books now, I'd be disappointed and just ruin those good memories.

I don't know how impressive I would find today things like

Spoiler

philosophy of the torturers or a roasted woman on a silver plate or Severian hanging like a tear from the eye of that giant statue or a duel with poison leaves or a dead woman throwing up rocks or the theory that eating human flesh adds that human's memories to your own...

(Yes, it's been 15 years, but I still remember those scenes and ideas...) I'm afraid they just wouldn't have that "wow" effect on me like they did all those years ago.

And, DM:
I don't know if I'm hitting the right spot here, but as I recall from my memories, one point about Wolfe's writing (or one "problem", depending on tastes) was that IMO he has no really "living" characters. I thought that already while I was reading those books, and now, looking at the scenes that cut into my memories, I'd say that he uses his characters like symbols/statues which he then arranges in visually impressive compositions. I remember I found Severian as a character very distant and closed; I can remember what he looked like and what he did, but I cannot really remember what he thought or felt. The series was like one of those Biblical journeys (in his case, through a bizarre Hell) constructed of a long row of terrifyingly beautiful pictures you can stare at for long time and keep discovering some new hidden symbolic allusion in every corner and character and composition... So, that makes it difficult to say that the book is badly written or boring, but a reader might still have a problem to get into the story, 'cos he/she simply has no interest in exploring all that's offered in those "pictures".

So, that's what I think, but I might be wrong - 15 years are a long, long time... I'll wait for a few further comments - maybe the discussion changes my mind and I give those books another try...

[amphibian]

Dag;197515 said:

And, DM:
I don't know if I'm hitting the right spot here, but as I recall from my memories, one point about Wolfe's writing (or one "problem", depending on tastes) was that IMO he has no really "living" characters. I thought that already while I was reading those books, and now, looking at the scenes that cut into my memories, I'd say that he uses his characters like symbols/statues which he then arranges in visually impressive compositions. I remember I found Severian as a character very distant and closed; I can remember what he looked like and what he did, but I cannot really remember what he thought or felt. The series was like one of those Biblical journeys (in his case, through a bizarre Hell) constructed of a long row of terrifyingly beautiful pictures you can stare at for long time and keep discovering some new hidden symbolic allusion in every corner and character and composition... So, that makes it difficult to say that the book is badly written or boring, but a reader might still have a problem to get into the story, 'cos he/she simply has no interest in exploring all that's offered in those "pictures".

So, that's what I think, but I might be wrong - 15 years are a long, long time... I'll wait for a few further comments - maybe the discussion changes my mind and I give those books another try...

I think that's a pretty reasonable view. Severian is supposed to be kinda unsympathetic, so the reader retains enough distance to question the validity and sequences of events and so on. In the story, Severian is writing The Book of the New Sun to create an autobiography and he's more interested in creating a particular image for himself rather than telling a strictly true account.

Able from The Wizard Knight is much, much easier for a reader to connect to, as is Latro from the Soldier series in a slightly lesser degree.

I really like Wolfe as a "change-of-pace" author. He's incredibly good at what he does and once I read his stuff, I realized that there really are no limitations in SF or even writing in general.

[Dolorous Menhir]

So...he's more of a writer's writer.

People don't read it and say "wow, this is really good," they say "wow, this guy is a really good writer." If you see the distinction I'm making.

[amphibian]

Dolorous Menhir;197645 said:

So...he's more of a writer's writer.

People don't read it and say "wow, this is really good," they say "wow, this guy is a really good writer." If you see the distinction I'm making.

I dunno. I think it's more of a high-brow, low-brow thing though. I mean, if just about every SF expert right now says Wolfe is OMFG-awesome, there's gotta be more than admiration for craftsmanship.

[Cnai?r]

I'd put it this way: Wolfe is one of my favorite writers, because of what I have to consider after the initial read. There are some beautiful turns of phrase, some enigmatic moments (is Severian a single person, for example), and elegantly-written scenes. He is obviously heavily influenced by both Jorge Luis Borges and his love for "puzzle stories" and by Jack Vance (something that he's openly acknowledged), especially in The Book of the New Sun.

I wouldn't say that he's "overrated" (as that would imply that one's personal frame of reference has to be superior to that of others, at least not without much justifications being given) as much as his particular style of storytelling/writing is not going to appeal to readers who are accustomed to/prefer other, more direct styles of writing. It'd be similar to someone who preferred an intensely personal, first-person autobiographical style of storytelling reading LotR for the first time. It'd be quite a dissonance there and probably would lead to that reader thinking Tolkien wasn't what he was cracked up to be.

That's probably what's going on here with many who don't really enjoy Wolfe's stories, more than any direct notes about how Wolfe is failing in the style of fiction that he himself aimed to write.

[Shuglin]

I loved these books. I first read them when I was 14 and I just reread them now I still love them especially the Duel.

[writinwater]

Gene Wolfe is mind blowingly, unbelieveably awesome. He gets my vote for greatest author of this century (Sorry, SE!).
The guy is 76 and his books just keep getting better!

Steven Erikson's writing is much like Gene Wolfe's in that they dont go on with discription - they put it down and you have to figure the rest out for yourself (the fun part), GW only more so.

I think of MBOTF as a cross between Wolfe's Book of the New Sun and George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire (in it's own bad-arse way ).

[Dolorous Menhir]

Just wanted to say that I have become something of a convert after finishing the first two books of the Book of the New Sun (Shadow & Claw). My original gripe about emotional involvement still stands, but I have no choice but to admire Wolfe as a great intellect. It just shines through in his stories, they are genuinely intelligent works, and I like that.