[gandrin]

In MBotF, it seemed pretty clear that all the giant races were descendants of the Thel Akai, who were a founding race. In fact, SE stated just that http://www.tor.com/2...estions-part-2/. One of the ghost Jaghut in TCG mentioned "all we need now is a Thel Akai [to complete having all the founding races there]".




However, from FoL it seems such is not the case. Kilmandaros made the Thel Akai, and [cannot remember which Azathanai] made the Thelomen and several others, who are warring with the Thel Akai. It seems a trivial thing, but SE went to great effort to point on in FoL that these are in fact unrelated giants.




Not a huge thing, but I'm kind of wondering why the discrepancy? Just another example of deconstructing the myths?

[nacht]

Nice observation!
Maybe the creation is not as straightforward as we think and sometimes involves mixing azathanai spawn.<br><br>Here is part of the conversation between K'rul and Vix

Quote

'You have left spawn among the mortals, 'K'rul said to Vix.&nbsp;&nbsp;'They name themseves Trell, and make war with the Thelomen.'


Vix reached up to straighen his thin, wispy moustache, ensuring that the long black braids properly flanked his broad, tusked mouth. 'I am profligate, to be sure. As for war, well, of course, why ever not?'


'But you claim the Theomen as your spawn as well, 'K'rul pointed out.


'Just so. They actually share the same god. Me. And yet in my name they unleash hate and venom upon each other. Is that not amusing? Mortals are petty and vicious, unthinking and spiteful, inclined to stupidity and wilfully ignorant.&;I do so love them.' He then made the habitual gesture K'rul had seen countless times before: reaching up to lightly brush the stitches sealing shut the lids of his left eye. 'I contemplate a third breed, an admixture of Thelomen, Treel and Dog Runner, whom I shall name Barghast. I expect they will war against everyone.'


'Dog-Runner? I would think Olar Ethil might object that, Vix.'

So it is possible, Vix could have mixed Thel Akai with some other race to create Thelomen.

This post has been edited by nacht: 02 September 2016 - 06:03 PM

[Puck]

I'm not sure it's a contradiction. Here's the full quote from tCG:

Quote

'First Sword – do you see? Forkrul Assail, K'Chain Che'Malle, Imass and now Jaghut! What a fell party this is!'
Gedoran grunted and said, 'All we now need are a few Thel Akai, Haut, and we can swap old lies all night long!'

Remember that when there is talk about Founding Races, mostly only in the first few books, there's the talk of there being four of them and neither the Thel Ajai nor any of their supposed descendants are mentioned among the Founding Races. To me, the exchange sounds like a riff on the Founding Races thing, see the remarkt about swapping 'old lies all night long'. After all, whether they are the ancestors of the Thelomen or not, the Thel Akai were among the first races, but are barely ever mentioned.

Also, I always interpreted 'Foundign Races' as 'those that were there first', not as 'ancestors of everyone else'. But that may be just me.

This post has been edited by Puck: 02 September 2016 - 06:12 PM

[Gorefest]

I agree. I take the 'founding races' to be the first ones to arrive on Wu (or however we need to call the Malazan world now that Wu is a character). Not necessarily the first "evolutionary" races that spawned all others, as we have already seen that evolution is not a comparable force to real-world biology with all the magic and azathenai meddling. So more as in 'founding' a new pact or status quo, a new balance of coexisting after ages of devastating war and strive. This also fits in with the events on Assail where such a coexistence pact is renewed and reaffirmed.

[Kalam&Quick]

Hate to necro a thread, but just finishing up a re-read and had some ideas on this exact subject.

Now, i also was confused at SE's words on the founding races, on the Thel Akai and on the different races being spawned by Vix.


now quite honestly? i think SE is kind of Doing this on purpose ad leaving it a bit confusing obviously. SE himself is a big proponent on how Time can really twist the facts in life.

IIRC it was also stated back in MBotF that there were a few different beliefs on the barghast/Trell/Toblakai/Teblor ETC. with most thinking that the Barghast were even a sub- or cross species of human, and even the barghast themselves not even remembering that THEY were a seafaring people until the boats were re-discovered.

i think SE is actually doing the opposite of what he did did with the Tiste Race(showing that they were not originally 3 separate races with the Andii coming first, but 1 race that was then Quite literally, divided down the middle)

in this case, what we know from MBotF we had the impression that they were ALL from 1 founding race(thel akai) and thus split into the different sub races(theloman - TTT, The Barghast, and the trell) seems to literally be the exact opposite. and were infact 3-4 very Different races created, and assuringly time and scholars/historians( who probably thought they were clever in thinking that ALL the giant races just HAD to all come from the same place) seemed to have somehow merged them all into one group.

it actually would give a VERY nice ironic duality to both this trilogy AND to the possible Toblakai trilogy that SE is hinting at working on, giving up a bit of background set up with it.

so essentially, the Tiste were Believed to be 3 races, but were actually all 1 this whole time, and the TTT/Trell/Thelakai who were all thought to be coming from 1, were actually 3 different races all along haha. maybe its just me, but it does seem to be a very Ericsson thing to do, kind of give us the run-around with the races, and showing exactly what can happen to a people and their history given enough time and enough crazy people weaving stories.

[Keysi]

It may or may not have been mentioned in the crack pot theories thread, but that quote just up there makes Vix really reminds me of Fener.

Tusks and not being averse to war.
Was it ever mentioned in a physical description of Fener that he had a moustache? I forget.