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My thoughts/questions (SPOILERS)

#1 User is offline   bhokaralasenator 

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 06:23 PM

Dancer's Lament is Esselmont's best work yet. Having slogged through the ending of his previous series, I had no/low expectations for this book, but I'm thoroughly satisfied with this entry.

I tend to agree with most of the points made by other posters here, but there's a couple of things I want to point out:

The K'chain Nahruk are chilling in Kurald Emurlahn? Granted, we only saw one and it appeared to just have a little chunk of a Skykeep, but it raises a ton of questions. Quick Ben previously explained the hive-mind nature of the Nahruk and said that one, by itself, was little more than an automaton. Yet there's one bouncing around KE, and clearly not there with permission from the Hounds/Edgewalker.

So, Ho - we got a few answers about Ho splitting himselfinto the Ahl, Lar, and Thal entities we saw in RotCG, but I seem to forget whattheir beef was with him. Didn't they tryto kill him at the Battle of the Plains? Did he use them as a channel to drop his weaker aspects, likeRyllandaras did when he dumped all his crazy into the Man-Beast?

Silk's access to Kurald Thyrllan continues to confuse me. So far, the only humans we've seen access the Elder Warrens did so in a religious fashion – like the priest accessing Kurald Galain in RotCG (and Quick Ben, but he doesn't count). After RotCG, I just assumed he was a Liosan in a human guise, but this book clearly establishes his human nature. Was it just his proximity to Shalmanat that allowed him to use it? Considering D&K ultimately take out Shalmanat, I'm interested to learn of the circumstances that lead Silk to join the Malazan armies.

Oleg's research apparently paved the way for Wu's break-into KE. This was alleged in NoK, but it was a bit disappointing to see Wu admit that he didn't come up with this knowledge on his own… makes him seem less a mad genius and more a thief. Kellanved's legitimacy as ruled of Shadow seems more and more dubious, but I guess it's a good thing he doesn't care about thatsort of thing.

Speaking of Wu/Kellanved, I couldn't help but notice that no one mentions Meanas as a warren, even him. Perhaps it was his tapping of KE that led to the formation of the human version of Shadow: Illusion? If so, what warren was he tapping at the beginning, before he broke in to KE?

The Azath's interference and setting K&D on the path to accessing Shadow (or maybe the First Throne, no way to know yet) doesn't yet make a whole lot of sense. If the Azath's ultimate goal was to position K&D to start the Empire, then cause them to ascend, just so they could pull of the big plot of restoring the Crippled God and send him home, then how could/would they/it know that K&D would pursue such a goal? If the Azath's goal was to power up a couple partners who could then go about restoring Azath houses like Tremorlor and making new ones like Kettle House, then I guess it makes a bit more sense.

Gothos to the helm: "Well well… you would send two more upon your hopeless fool's errand." What's the errand? The aforementioned potential plots?

I'm excited to see a non-mage Dorin become Shadow-wielding Dancer. I think it's clear he has access to magic in NoK, right? Have we seen any other examples of non-mages coming into power like that?

Ryllandaras is going to have to escape, only to get imprisoned again, right?

If KE is sealed off, how do the Tiste Edur access it in MT? I know the warlocks were using the Crippled God's power and Chaos, but wasn't there some legit use of KE proper? I guess it was just a fragment that they drew from?

If the Hounds are guardians of KE and take orders from no one, I'm curious as to the role of the Hounds of Light and the Deragoth? The Hounds of Light seem to take orders from the Liosan (right? Didn't they send them after Dragnipur in TtH?) and the Deragoth just seem to do whatever they want when they're not petrified, or whatever.

And did anyone else have a really hard time picturing how a whip sword works or what it looks like?

All in all I really liked this one, probably my favorite ICE book yet.

This post has been edited by bhokaralasenator: 23 August 2016 - 06:29 PM

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#2 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 07:07 PM

View Postbhokaralasenator, on 23 August 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

I'm excited to see a non-mage Dorin become Shadow-wielding Dancer. I think it's clear he has access to magic in NoK, right? Have we seen any other examples of non-mages coming into power like that?


Beyond the shadow dance, Dancer never becomes a mage AFAIK.
Tatts early in SH game: Hmm, so if I'm liberal I should have voted Nein to make sure I'm president? I'm not that selfish

Tatts later in SAME game: I'm going to be a corrupt official. I have turned from my liberal ways, and now will vote against the pesky liberals. Viva la Fascism.
When Venge's turn comes, he will get a yes from Mess, Dolmen, Nevyn and Venge but a no from the 3 fascists and me. **** with my Government, and i'll **** with yours
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#3 User is offline   bhokaralasenator 

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 07:21 PM

View PostSecret Startaker, on 23 August 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

View Postbhokaralasenator, on 23 August 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

I'm excited to see a non-mage Dorin become Shadow-wielding Dancer. I think it's clear he has access to magic in NoK, right? Have we seen any other examples of non-mages coming into power like that?


Beyond the shadow dance, Dancer never becomes a mage AFAIK.


Well, he still uses magic throughout the book of the fallen. He can open a path to Shadow, summon the Hounds, possess people, hide himself, and swing a magic rope that makes people explode. Even pre-ascension in NoK he uses illusions when conversing with Tayschrenn. I think it's safe to say that he comes into some power at some point.
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#4 User is offline   Nevyn 

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 08:17 PM

View Postbhokaralasenator, on 23 August 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

View PostSecret Startaker, on 23 August 2016 - 07:07 PM, said:

View Postbhokaralasenator, on 23 August 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

I'm excited to see a non-mage Dorin become Shadow-wielding Dancer. I think it's clear he has access to magic in NoK, right? Have we seen any other examples of non-mages coming into power like that?


Beyond the shadow dance, Dancer never becomes a mage AFAIK.


Well, he still uses magic throughout the book of the fallen. He can open a path to Shadow, summon the Hounds, possess people, hide himself, and swing a magic rope that makes people explode. Even pre-ascension in NoK he uses illusions when conversing with Tayschrenn. I think it's safe to say that he comes into some power at some point.


He can do all that once he ascends.

As for the illusions in NoK, I would have to re-read, but how sure are you he is casting them?
Tatts early in SH game: Hmm, so if I'm liberal I should have voted Nein to make sure I'm president? I'm not that selfish

Tatts later in SAME game: I'm going to be a corrupt official. I have turned from my liberal ways, and now will vote against the pesky liberals. Viva la Fascism.
When Venge's turn comes, he will get a yes from Mess, Dolmen, Nevyn and Venge but a no from the 3 fascists and me. **** with my Government, and i'll **** with yours
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#5 User is offline   qcp 

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 02:18 PM

View Postbhokaralasenator, on 23 August 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

And did anyone else have a really hard time picturing how a whip sword works or what it looks like?



https://www.youtube....h?v=fMz_Z0Xq-2I
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#6 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 05:03 PM

View Postqcp, on 24 August 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

View Postbhokaralasenator, on 23 August 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

And did anyone else have a really hard time picturing how a whip sword works or what it looks like?



https://www.youtube....h?v=fMz_Z0Xq-2I


That.

Also RCG had a really good action scene of Shimmer cutting loose with it.
PUST: Go forth, Hounds of Life! Go forth and do my bidding!
CHASE: (quietly) I dunno pups... he seems to be bidding us to hurt a bunch of people.
MARSHALL: So? I mauled Mayor Humdinger's face and set him on fire that one time and he was totally fine the next week.
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#7 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 05:12 PM

View Postbhokaralasenator, on 23 August 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

So, Ho - we got a few answers about Ho splitting himselfinto the Ahl, Lar, and Thal entities we saw in RotCG, but I seem to forget whattheir beef was with him. ...


We didn't know what their beef was but it appears that it was his keeping them locked up as we saw in DL.

Quote

Silk's access to Kurald Thyrllan continues to confuse me. So far, the only humans we've seen access the Elder Warrens did so in a religious fashion like the priest accessing Kurald Galain in RotCG (and Quick Ben, but he doesn't count). After RotCG, I just assumed he was a Liosan in a human guise, but this book clearly establishes his human nature. Was it just his proximity to Shalmanat that allowed him to use it? Considering D&K ultimately take out Shalmanat, I'm interested to learn of the circumstances that lead Silk to join the Malazan armies.


I have the same questions for the same reasons. ^_^


Quote

Ryllandaras is going to have to escape, only to get imprisoned again, right?



That was my take. Plus the Protector's swords have to be there for Rel to use.


Quote

If KE is sealed off, how do the Tiste Edur access it in MT? I know the warlocks were using the Crippled God's power and Chaos, but wasn't there some legit use of KE proper? I guess it was just a fragment that they drew from?


Iirc, the Edur were actually using a chunk of Kurald Galain accessed through the enslaved Andii shadow-souls. A portion of 'Dark' as 'Shadow'.

Quote

If the Hounds are guardians of KE and take orders from no one, I'm curious as to the role of the Hounds of Light and the Deragoth? The Hounds of Light seem to take orders from the Liosan (right? Didn't they send them after Dragnipur in TtH?) and the Deragoth just seem to do whatever they want when they're not petrified, or whatever.


We don't know a whole lot about that yet, but note that it seems like the Deragoth are massively powerful evolved predators, while the Hounds of Shadow and probably Light were, at some point, constructs, or bred magic animals.

The HoL seemed to be obeying the Liosan in TtH and TCG, but then, we know from SW that the Liosan aren't exactly united, and we saw often enough in MBF that the Hounds seem to obey ST n Cots but thinly, and were subject to other influences like the Edur in HoC.
PUST: Go forth, Hounds of Life! Go forth and do my bidding!
CHASE: (quietly) I dunno pups... he seems to be bidding us to hurt a bunch of people.
MARSHALL: So? I mauled Mayor Humdinger's face and set him on fire that one time and he was totally fine the next week.
CHASE: Good point. (louder) OK pups, Paw Patrol is on a roll!
PUST: WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN???
-The Malazan Book of the Paw Patrol
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#8 User is offline   bhokaralasenator 

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 05:35 PM

Wait, they were using KG via enslaved Andii souls?!? I must have completely misunderstood that. I'm guessing it was explained in MT? Any idea which part?
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#9 User is offline   Tatterdemalion 

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Posted 02 September 2016 - 01:26 AM

Posts like this always make me feel dumb for coming up with no such questions and mostly forgetting RCG as I read it a decade ago... Alas... :rtfm:
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#10 User is offline   Amby Bole 

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Posted 03 September 2016 - 05:44 AM

Well.. the way i see it:

1- Silk's warren is Thyr. Thyr draw it power from KT or KL as you want it. The protectress was a High Priest of Light, she sanctified his temple in the city. So basically, Silk is able to acces KT because of this sanctified temple and his proximity to it and ofc because his warren draws on KT. In RotCG he mentions that the power on the temple is just a remnant and he doesn't seem able to fully access KT.

2- I just think the Azath needed a ruler of Shadow / KE because the Crippled God, sensing this powefull warren, attempted to usurp it ( the dragons told Dancer that the fallen one was using KE because it was broken and it was easy to acces to it ). After that it was only natural for K&D to opose the fallen one. Why them? Well.. for me the question is more likely Why humans instead of Edur? This will probably be solved on the karkanas trillogy, but i think KE had simply too much power and the pretenders were simply too strong to keep the balance. Remember, its always about balance. Thats the "fool's errand" for me, to heal KE without drawing the atention of every single ascendant over the world.

3- The Edur acces to KE is granted thanks to the crippled god. They use the andii souls but not to gain access, they use them to create shadows.

4- Paran was not a mage and once he became an ascendant he could open warrens as nobody else could without performing huge rituals. So yeah, it appears every ascendant is able to acces to some level of magic, even before becoming a god. Every single one of the "old guard" lived on an azath house, D&K travelled through them gainin who knows what abilities. Stormy and Gesler gained fire resistance and they only travelled once. Urko & Torva killed avoweds and make it look easy. Well, Urko punched Karsa Orlong to the ground with only 1 hit. All of them are pretty much ascendants or close to, D&K are the ones who ascended so yeah, it seems possible for Dancer to have some level of magic.

5- About the Hounds... Well, I think every hound nature is different. The deragoth ( considering Draconus words on fall of light ) are probably dwellers of Elemental Night, d'ivers. Thats why
dessimbelackis couldn't control them, they were powerfull enough before he attempted to control them, and he wasn't strong enough. Anyway, i'm thinking draconus just drove them off from elemental night before giving access to Mother Dark, he did some clean up after all, he said it.

Well, that about it

This post has been edited by Amby Bole: 03 September 2016 - 05:48 AM

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