[Ultama]

At the risk of sounding OMGUS

Vote BH

[Bendal Home]

Lets see how big your balls are Gait. Can you vote for your master on D Day? True you guys only need to convince Karosis or Gasp that I am scum in order to win. I am counting on the fact that Karosis and Gasp can read between my lines and past your bullshit.

[Bendal Home]

Ultama, on 18 August 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

At the risk of sounding OMGUS

Vote BH

Hovering over the keyboard. Checking to see if you are going to be lynched or is someone will vote for me so that gait can jump on and hammer. Nice. Me I rested easy knowing that I am correct in all aspects. How frantic was your sleep. I noticed that you were posting late last night and early this morning. Your actions betray your nervousness.

[Gait]

Bendal Home, on 18 August 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Lets see how big your balls are Gait. Can you vote for your master on D Day? True you guys only need to convince Karosis or Gasp that I am scum in order to win. I am counting on the fact that Karosis and Gasp can read between my lines and past your bullshit.

My balls are just the right healthy size, thanks. No particular pressure on me as, contrary to your continued spluttering, I have no master. The only pressure is picking the right bullshitter out of you two, and I'm pretty confident that one of you two is going to turn out scum. I am, however, a little disappointed and slightly worried by the absence of the other two. I was hoping for some input one way or the other.

Right, let's see what's what.

[Grasp]

Still around 9-10 hours left in the day, I'll hold off on my vote, but I'm definitely leaning more towards Ultama than I am Bendal.

[Gait]

Bendal, I'm reading through your posts (I'm doing this in alphabetical order before you throw a tizzy), and I just want to say, and this is very important:

The name is Grasp, not Gasp. Your inability to write Grasp is maddening.

[Gait]

Alrighty, let's have a look at Bendal's posts:

Bendal Home, on 11 August 2016 - 02:48 AM, said:

Well that read up is a complete monkey fuck. (See what I did there)

I am in the unfortunate position of finding myself in agreement with Eloth. One the one hand I admire a good gamble by town to try to trap scum. But monoks play is just so much wifom that him and gasp have now put them selves squarely in the to much trouble to keep around camp.

I have several problem with this type of play.

A. What kind of nut bag starts off the game trying to both vpi and trap scum.

B. What kinds of other players actually defend that kind of behavior and consider it acceptable. Looking at you lock and gasp.

C. There seems to be no thought to the down side potential. Which runs counter to how I play. Wcs every time all the time.

Monok has to go. To much wifom around him and to much more potential in the days to come.

vote monok

First big presence is their taking to task of Monok, which also more mildly pulls in Lock and Grasp. Declares that Monok "has to go". I had problems with this on day 1, but didn't say anything because there was no point in adding to the clusterfuck, but this is will end up coming back up later.

Bendal Home, on 11 August 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

Grasp, on 11 August 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

Liosan, on 11 August 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

Grasp, on 11 August 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

Dear lord you people are dense. Voting out a PI cause you don't like the way he plays is a ridiculous move. You should have left him for scum to waste a kill on.

So day 1 and you've already PId him?

Yeah, he pulled a move I've seen a million times, and it's brilliant even if it does skirt the 'no reveals' rule in a frustrating way. Frankly, the only way to prevent such a thing is for the mod to post the RI PM right off the bat, then there's no using the wording to PI yourself, which is what Monok did with the "I have the power" comment and Lock VPI'd himself by noting where it likely comes from.

I mean, believe what you will, that's fine. But I think that there were much more interesting people to look at - i.e. Silanah, Denesmet and Eloth - who've all professed to not understanding what we're on about.

I certainly won't be moving my vote over to someone I am pretty sure is RI.

It is a bullshit move intended to attempt to VPI himself. It is potentially game breaking and you and lock should be ashamed of yourselves as mafia players for encouraging it. It has not happened a million times there have only been 150 total mafia games played on this forum. So unless you have played 999,850 on different forums (if so then you have fallen on hard mafia times my friend) then you are full of shit. I have played in most of the mafia games on this forum and day one antics like this has only happened in a handful of games. Each time to the detriment of town. Every single time someone in town has attempted to use wording of a role pm to vpi themselves and or others it diminishes the game and the hard work that other put into the game to actually find real connections and interactions.

Not to mention that the attempted use of the wording of a pm violates rule B12 (see below)

B12) Reveal any information about their role within the game when such reveals are forbidden (this is only forbidden in certain games).

When this rule is applied to

Path-Shaper, on 10 August 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

Game Specific Rules

Days are 36 hours. Nights are as instantaneous as possible.

NO REVEALS OF ROLES ARE ALLOWED.

As a mod I would have modkilled Monoc and if that broke then game then stopped the game and ran a different scenario.

Encouraging behavior that potentially breaks the game for all other players in the game is not just a violation of the written rules but also a selfish move that shows no appreciation for the game nor for your fellow players who do not want to play that way.

Now if we can get done with this and move on then this game can still be played and enjoyed.

End rant.

Similar to the first post, a small rant at Lock and Grasp, a bigger rant at Monok.

Here's what I don't like about this, not just from Bendal Home but from pretty much everyone who screamed that Monok needs to be lynched. At no point does it seem suggested that Monok is scum, or if it is, it's only lightly touched upon. Rather, Monok was lynched for what was considered not playing in the spirit of the game and a bad move. I agree with both of those things. I do not, however, agree with lynching a townie, and Monok quite clearly appeared to be that. That's why I didn't vote, and that's why I quirked my eyebrow at those who did. More on this again later.

Bendal Home, on 15 August 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

I am not feeling the case on Silanah. I feel that it is being pushed by people who I don't have a read on (excepting Eloth who is an open book). I will read up some more and try to figure out why I feel that way.

This post appears to be much the same as what I said about Skintick (and that's the last time I'll mention that crap), that is, speaking of a feeling but not elaborating on it, happy to let others take the lead. BUT then...

Bendal Home, on 15 August 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:

I am disinclined to lynch. I don't like either one of the cases/reasoning. Gasp got pulled into the cluster with Tatts. Ok so people think he might be a symp. Ok well then who is he symping? Monok who turned out to be RI. I guess Fake symping. That doesn't seem like it is going to get anything. People feel that Silanah's reaction to seeing a guard be killed was over the top. I don't really see it. Certainly not enough to convince me to vote for someone. I am not sure who I like as scum. There are several that I don't have any read on which makes me suspicious due to the abstinence of information.

...unlike Skin, Bendal does indeed come back with actual reasoning on not wanting to vote for Silanah. So this seems like good play after all.

Bendal has also notably eased off and calmed down on Grasp here.

[Gait]

Bendal Home, on 17 August 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Grasp, on 17 August 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

Nooooo!!! Lock was my VPI! Ah well... That means killer is among the rest of you lot...

I've no read on most of you. I believe that Gait and that Karosis are most likely RI - but where has Bendal Home even been? Ultama I have no real read on either.

Contrived feelings of sadness.


Tatt's actions at the beginning of the game coupled with the mod kills have thrown me out of my game zone. So I have found some better things to due until I feel the call to come back and give a shit. From a quick read up I feel that Ultama is attempting to lead the thread and would be my choice for scum. However I can not put together a sold reason for that conclusion. Just a feeling reading over his posts that he is setting up and driving suspects.

I have a minor feeling on the layout of the game. I was not expecting a SK to be in this game and the addition of one indicates that it is not a tmdi 1-2 game. But if I had created this game and tossed in both a guard and a healer and included a SK and a killer. One thing that I noticed is that other then the night that Skin and Serc were killed there was no other 2 kill night. Which leads me to believe that either the healer got lucky the first night. Or the second killer had a delayed component to it. I am discounting the second one because adding something like that will automatically drive up tmdi and make it harder for town to win even with multiple town roles.

So if we look at it from the perspective that the game started out with town roles of a healer and a guard and then a SK and a separate killer and perhaps symp. That would be somewhat a balanced game. Then we are left with the conclusion that this game has boiled down to town having no roles and there being WCS a killer and symp. Now if you consider tatts "brilliant move" a way for a symp to out all of the roled town players (which it looks like he did) then you could conclude that he was the symp. Of course that would not be playing in the WCS so I will leave that be.

Most likely there is a killer and I am going to assume a symp. Town has no roles and there is very little remaining information to go off of. Other then the silanah lynch.

Path-Shaper, on 15 August 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

It's a lynch!
10 Players still alive: Bendal Home, Fener, gait, Grasp, Karosis, Lock, Serc, silanah, Skintick, Ultama

6 votes to lynch, 5 votes to go to night.

6 Votes for silanah ( Ultama, Serc, gait, Grasp, Lock, Karosis )
2 Votes for Grasp ( Skintick, silanah )

Players not voted: Bendal Home, Fener


The town gathered around the old tree to witness the hanging of the old dragon Silanah. A worried quiet overtook them as they realized they had again strung up one of their own. Silanah was Andorion and R.I.

Hmmm I feel that Gait is more likely to be town. Karosis could be a well playing scum or town. Gasp could be a symp or town and Ultama I have a very uneasy feeling about.

That is where I stand.

A question: What is the "contrived feelings of sadness" referring to? Are you saying that Grasp is faking, or are you talking about something else? It seems an odd statement to begin this post with.

This is the beginning of Bendal's suspicions of Ultama, despite that odd first bit which seems to be directed at Grasp. Talks about the layout/roles in the game but that's all pointless because by this time I think that PS had already told us exactly what roles are in the game. So that whole middle chunk is ultimately a waste of words, but perhaps Bendal is just thinking things through.

In this post Bendal assumes a symp remains because it's WCS. Fair enough. Still thinks I am town at this stage, however. Talks about Grasp possibly being a symp even though they themselves dismissed that earlier.

Bendal Home, on 17 August 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

On the WCS chance that there is still a symp left alive I would ask that people refrain from voting until everyone has posted at least some thoughts.

I hate these kinds of posts. They're just goody-goody posts stating the obvious but looking like they're directing for town's benefit. True, they can be done by either town or scum, but they always raise my hackles.

Bendal Home, on 17 August 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 11 August 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

IT IS A LYNCH!
It is Day 1. 2 hours and 10 minutes remaining

14 Players still alive: Bendal Home, Denesmet, Eloth, Fener, gait, Grasp, Karosis, Liosan, Lock, Monok Ochem, Serc, silanah, Skintick, Ultama

8 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Eloth ( Monok Ochem, Grasp )
9 Votes for Monok Ochem ( Karosis, Fener, Bendal Home, Serc, Monok, Denesmet, Liosan, Ultama, Lock)

Players not voted: Eloth, gait, silanah, Skintick, Ultama

The town gathered around the old tree in the sqare to watch as the ape Monok Ochem hung from one of it's branches. A hush fell across the crowd as they realized he was one of their own. Monok Ochem was Tattersail and RI.

Looking at the Silanah lynch made me go back and look at the Monok lynch.

Left alive and having voted for lynching Tatts

Karosis, Bendal

Voted for Eloth
Gasp

Not voted

Gait and Ultima

This makes me a little bit more comfortable moving Karosis closer to the town side. Scum should have been perfectly happy to let Tatts drag on as long as possible but Karosis was the first to vote for him.

Okay, so Bendal starts his analysis. Note that Ultama has already been raised as a suspect by Bendal, along with Karosis, before they've begun this examination of lynch trains. Karosis is now moved over to the townie column.

Second and perhaps more critically, I do not agree with the assessment here. I did not want to see Monok lynched because they were clearly town. Why would I want to reduce those numbers? So I don't agree that only scum would have wanted to see him live, not at all.

And that's not even yet mentioning that...

[Gait]

Bendal Home, on 17 August 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

Ultama, on 17 August 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:

Bendal Home, on 17 August 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 11 August 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

IT IS A LYNCH!
It is Day 1. 2 hours and 10 minutes remaining

14 Players still alive: Bendal Home, Denesmet, Eloth, Fener, gait, Grasp, Karosis, Liosan, Lock, Monok Ochem, Serc, silanah, Skintick, Ultama

8 votes to lynch, 7 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Eloth ( Monok Ochem, Grasp )
9 Votes for Monok Ochem ( Karosis, Fener, Bendal Home, Serc, Monok, Denesmet, Liosan, Ultama, Lock)

Players not voted: Eloth, gait, silanah, Skintick, Ultama

The town gathered around the old tree in the sqare to watch as the ape Monok Ochem hung from one of it's branches. A hush fell across the crowd as they realized he was one of their own. Monok Ochem was Tattersail and RI.

Looking at the Silanah lynch made me go back and look at the Monok lynch.

Left alive and having voted for lynching Tatts

Karosis, Bendal

Voted for Eloth
Gasp

Not voted

Gait and Ultima

This makes me a little bit more comfortable moving Karosis closer to the town side. Scum should have been perfectly happy to let Tatts drag on as long as possible but Karosis was the first to vote for him.

PS mistake. I had voted but was left in the unvote line

Ah yes. I don't know how I missed that earlier. Your vote is close enough to the end that it could be scum joining the train in order to get on. I only lend it a little bit of credence because of the mess that Tatts made which basically forced town to lynch him.

...Bendal is wrong about who was actually on the train. But finding out Ultama was on it changes nothing for them. Indeed, they simply twist it to say it's actually scummy, when apparently staying off the train was scummy before! So Ultama is damned by Bendal in either case. More than any other, this post by Bendal worries me. Is it a townie with blinkers on (who could yet be correct, but nevertheless the blinkers are apparent)? Or scum set down a pre-meditated path?

Bendal Home, on 17 August 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:

After reading back over the last page or so. I do not see Karosis as scum. Gaits weird case on skintick after he was killed smacks me as a symp who had already decided who he was going to try to start a train on the next day. Not a towny thing to do. Town looks at who died. Gait just made his case and didn't bother because he knew that it wasn't him and that his killer wasn't lynched the previous day. In otherwords he didn't care. That kind of relaxation is more typical of a symp then a killer.

If I assume that Gait is a symp then who is he symping. Well his behavior indicates that he isn't having to defend anyone. Which means that it isn't Gasp as Gasp has been under pressure since he sided with Tatts. I like Karosis as town based on his voting pattern and posting logic. Which leads me to believe that he is Ultama's symp.

Ultama hasn't been under any pressure all game. Has managed to stay out of all of the pissing contests. In fact both him and Gait stayed completely away from the Tatts mess. Which is where scum would want to be.

I am really liking Ultama for scum. I will only vote for Ultama or Gait and would rather vote for Ultama as I think that Gait is the symp.

I really want to hear from Gasp and Karosis.

This is when Bendal brings me into the picture, and it's all to do with my Skintick posts. Well...fair enough actually. That was an honest mistake where I confused Serc and Skintick, but absurdly stupid nontheless. A real brain freeze, and I don't begrudge anyone taking me to task over that.

However, I've got to disagree with the overall assessment (and I don't mean just the symp accusation, which is obvious). Admittedly I am not unbiased here, so perhaps someone else can also weigh in on this, but if it wasn't me who had done that, but someone else, I would not be thinking they're a symp because it's "relaxed" play. First, it was a mistake caused by stupid but nonetheless well-meaning play, and nothing relaxed about it. Second, even if we call it that, in my experience the only people who play relaxed are non-roled. So again I don't see a symp doing something like that which calls so much attention to them. And for what reason? Why would I do that as a symp? It doesn't make sense.

Bendal Home, on 17 August 2016 - 08:47 PM, said:

Karosis, on 17 August 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

Just had time for a quick re-read (gotta love using Block Content on dead alts. So much easier reading the living) and I'm finding Grasp much more suspicious than I am Ultama.

Don't focus on his behavior for the first couple of days. I agree day 1 and 2 he was suspicious as shit. But that is because of the Tatts mess. Ultama is more the lack of interaction and the deliberate staying away of anything even remotely combative. Classic low posting scum. Yesterday Gait was acting mildly retarded and very suspiciously. Every time I read up I become more convinced that I am right.

Here dismissing suspicion of Grasp. That's quite a bit of a turnaround from earlier on (although interestingly it was less suspicion and more being negative toward Grasp, but without accusing them of anything). Nevertheless, this could also be put down to a changing of mentality after a reread.

I tend to broadly agree with the assessment of Ultama's play up to this point here. I am at the same time disappointed by Bendal's actual evidence-gathering, which amounted to looking at lynch trains and then changing arguments after making a mistake. The assessment of play style does seem right, however, but I will have to confirm that on my own reread.

Bendal Home, on 17 August 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

Gait, on 17 August 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

I'll try to post more detailed thoughts later, but for now I'll say I quite like Bendal's argument about Ultama (lack of friction/interaction), except obviously the part which links them to me, which I'm afraid to say is wrong. But so long as you don't think I'm the killer, I guess that's still fine! The Skintick thing was just...embarrassing.

I also agree that I don't see Grasp as the killer, unless we're saying that they totally fucked up in the first couple of days getting themselves wrapped up in the crap. I'd imagine a killer to be more careful than that.

Before I do anything I'll probably regret later, I'd like to take a closer look at both Ultama and Bendal as well. The latter I pretty much forgot was even playing till now (as much a reflection on me as on them, granted).

Ohhh nice transition from yeah Ultima could be scummy to bendal is. The subtly is nice. Unfortunately I am completely on to you. But just so that the others can see go ahead and defend Ultima by attacking me.

And from here on Bendal sinks to taunts, jabs, and displaying utter conviction. I don't like that Bendal claims he KNOWS, but I had thought prior to the reread that his posts contained more evidence to his case than they actually had. Bendal is either truly convinced - in which case he's convinced largely through feeling and an erroneous assumption that I'm a symp - or he's desperately trying to stave off analysis of his own posts.


No conclusions yet from me, till I take a look at Ultama.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 4. 9 hours and 57 minutes remaining

5 Players still alive: Bendal Home, gait, Grasp, Karosis, Ultama

3 votes to lynch, 3 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Bendal Home ( Ultama )
1 Vote for Ultama (Bendal Home)

Players not voted: gait, Grasp, Karosis

Edit: Fixed...

This post has been edited by Path-Shaper: 18 August 2016 - 03:57 PM

[Gait]

Path-Shaper, on 18 August 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

It is Day 4. 9 hours and 57 minutes remaining

5 Players still alive: Bendal Home, gait, Grasp, Karosis, Ultama

3 votes to lynch, 3 votes to go to night.

1 Vote for Bendal Home ( Ultama )

Players not voted: Bendal Home, gait, Grasp, Karosis

I think BH voted for Ultama as well, PS.

[Gait]

OMGs. I'll do my Ultama analysis first, but I think I've spotted something in my reread.

[Bendal Home]

Path-Shaper you missed my vote.

Bendal Home, on 18 August 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

While I agree with the general idea of not voting because of the same reason as ultima. I am very sure of my reasoning. I think that if town rereads my posts today they may be able to discover why. I feel pretty sure that gait will not vote to lynch Ultima. He may lay a second vote on but then remove. I doubt that he will lay a second vote on though. This close to the end it would be playing with fire for him.


I am very confident that Ultima is scum and that Gasp and Karosis are town. Gait has fully revealed that he is the symp.


Vote Ultima

[Bendal Home]

Gait, on 18 August 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

OMGs. I'll do my Ultama analysis first, but I think I've spotted something in my reread.

Gait nice symp work. You are going back over the same thing that you went over yesterday when you were deflecting from Ultima. Now you are going through your symp play book and covering the pages in as many quotes and posts as possible because you know that the more you muddy things the less chance that Karosis and Gasp (just to irritate you) will bother looking back at the earlier posts.

I hope that Karosis and Grasp notice that Gait and Ultima really started to get worked up and trying throwing up posts after posts once I locked on to Ultima as scum.

Gait is playing from the classical symp book now.

[Grasp]

Bendal Home, on 18 August 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

Gait, on 18 August 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

OMGs. I'll do my Ultama analysis first, but I think I've spotted something in my reread.

Gait nice symp work. You are going back over the same thing that you went over yesterday when you were deflecting from Ultima. Now you are going through your symp play book and covering the pages in as many quotes and posts as possible because you know that the more you muddy things the less chance that Karosis and Gasp (just to irritate you) will bother looking back at the earlier posts.

I hope that Karosis and Grasp notice that Gait and Ultima really started to get worked up and trying throwing up posts after posts once I locked on to Ultima as scum.

Gait is playing from the classical symp book now.

Yeah, still leaning towards Ultama myself.

[Gait]

Alright, so straight off Ultama has significantly more posts, but they are also in general largely less interesting too. That in itself is significant if we're talking about not making waves.

Ultama, on 10 August 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

Denesmet, on 10 August 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Silanah, on 10 August 2016 - 02:13 PM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 10 August 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

In the words of He-Man, "I have the Power!"Vote Lock

I have this feeling that this post is going to be the Day 1 shitshow no real case vote...

I suspect there's a joke there most people (including myself) didn't get.

Grasp, on 10 August 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

Liosan, on 10 August 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

Lock, on 10 August 2016 - 06:16 AM, said:

High fi( r )stLock reporting for duty!Edit: spaces in the brackets

Here and wtf is this supposed to mean?

I've a feeling he was trying to make a High Fist (a la Malaz) pun.

Comma gate anyone?

Edit: damn auto correct, comma not commack

Prodding and nudging much? Highlighting the two posts is in itself incitement to more thinking along those lines.

Ultama, on 11 August 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

Goddamn, sorry for being gone so long. Moved a fridge right after work, etc etc.

First, Monok does need to go, though he should have been mod killed for violation of the no reveal rule (how many games have we been over this type of thing?). We waste a Lynch on this too is my bet.

Second, if Monok's ploy did work, we have to worry about the people he mentioned being trapped: Eloth, Sil, and Den. Any one of those three could be scum, or worse, town roled.

Vote monok

What's a clusterfuck

I already said in my Bendal analysis why I don't agree with this 'Monok needs to go just because' thinking, so I won't repeat myself here. Bringing up Eloth, Sil and Dem like that is dodgy too (admittedly they weren't the only ones), but it does look dodgy in hindsight knowing how those all turned up.

Ultama, on 11 August 2016 - 11:41 PM, said:

Lock, on 10 August 2016 - 05:35 PM, said:

Grasp, on 10 August 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:

Eloth, on 10 August 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 10 August 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

Eloth, on 10 August 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

Checking in.

The he man reference stokes me as odd. But then it's mafia day one, random shit flinging votes ahoy!

vote eloth

Thanks for the logic there Monok.

and for whomever stepped in to nicely explain how Monok is clearly RI for us. smooth.

Lock and grasp upon a quick glance. of the two, Grasps post sticks out more.

Will vote for monok, lock or grasps at this junction.

You're just digging your hole deeper and deeper sir.

remove vote
vote Eloth

Where are you gaining that seeming confidence that there is any hole at all ffs? Half of people who recieved RI prolly didn't even read their whole PMs and there are town roles who wouldn't get that particular bit in their PM neither. Plus even newbies with any role could now know the phrase good enough for them to link it to the reference. And it only takes one of the killers to notice it and warn the other for them both to be clear

On a read through, I found this to be interesting. Go back and look how much Lock equivocates and hedges for those who failed to recognize the blatant unsanctioned fishing expedition. It is way too defensive when you would think crying mod killed would be a more appropriate response. I get the feeling lock is covering for someone, maybe Sil since Eloth seems to have proven himself useless to the game plot via his hissyfit.

This is the beginning of Ultama's pushing of suspicions of Lock. This goes on for a fair number of posts. Here they suggest that Lock could be a symp, either protecting Sil or Eloth (and thus adding strength to a suspicion on Silanah).

Ultama, on 12 August 2016 - 04:09 PM, said:

The only reason I bring those three up is because Monok's ruse has proven successful, although I will concede that Eloth is probably nothing more than RI because of that hissyfit, and if he is acting, hats off to him.

We can't really ignore the Elephant in the room imho. Just logically follows.

I am not sure I buy the symp logic for monok. It would take quite a stretch of forethought to come up with that, and it would risk his masters as much if not more than roled town.

vote Sil

I want to note here that while I pushed for a Silanah lynch, I did it for different reasons than given by Ultama (and some others). I didn't like Sil's posts for their own content and playstyle, NOT because of their supposed link with Monok. So I disagree with Ultama's reasons for voting for Silanah, even if I agreed with the lynch at the time.

Ultama, on 12 August 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

You do have a point. I doubt eloth has a role with actions so to speak, but I guess there is always a possibility he is the symp. But how we would figure that out, not sure. Hmm complicates things on Sil, but I am not sure we can avoid lynching him at this point.

Don't like this post. Dismissing any questions over Silanah, pretty much calling the lynch inevitable.

Ultama, on 16 August 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

I am busy throughout the day, but have started a reread. Lock and his defense of people during Monok's escapade still catches my eye. But it is interesting to see the lines drawn for and against what monok did. Anyway, we still have plenty of time to think today, so I will keep rereading and posting as time allows.

Brings up Lock again even in an aside, keeping them in the spotlight.

[Gait]

Ultama, on 17 August 2016 - 12:49 AM, said:

Grasp, on 11 August 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

Liosan, on 11 August 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

Grasp, on 11 August 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

Dear lord you people are dense. Voting out a PI cause you don't like the way he plays is a ridiculous move. You should have left him for scum to waste a kill on.

So day 1 and you've already PId him?

Yeah, he pulled a move I've seen a million times, and it's brilliant even if it does skirt the 'no reveals' rule in a frustrating way. Frankly, the only way to prevent such a thing is for the mod to post the RI PM right off the bat, then there's no using the wording to PI yourself, which is what Monok did with the "I have the power" comment and Lock VPI'd himself by noting where it likely comes from.I mean, believe what you will, that's fine. But I think that there were much more interesting people to look at - i.e. Silanah, Denesmet and Eloth - who've all professed to not understanding what we're on about. I certainly won't be moving my vote over to someone I am pretty sure is RI.

I hate to say it, but reading back through, I think grasp was pretty pragmatic. He does point out a logical stratagem based on given information and in the end is treated like he was the one who broke the rules. I am trying to figure out how people see him as a symp with this perspective, but am not seeing it.

Karosis, on 11 August 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

Eloth, on 11 August 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

Nope.I signed up for meat and potatoes.To.me that stretches as far as a few pro town roles (doc, vig, guard, cop) and on the killer side killers and symps (variables of paired/ solo killers)/out

So you're going to fuck over the rest of us by just walking off?You're trying to sound RI and not impressed. That's either a ballsy move by scum or you really are RI and are going to sulk.If you are RI you're doing town a major disservice - TMDI 5/6 as you well know is either multiple threats to town or rare/exotic roles. I.e. town needs every RI zoned into the game and actually playing for town in order to win.In the face of that you walking off is about as useful as a waterproof teabag.Sure you weren't expecting higher TMDI. We know you don't like it. As is clear on thread nor were a number of other people expecting it. Yes we need to seriously adjust our POV on what's happened on thread given that we're not just looking for killers any more. It's a bitch, agreed. But work with us, not against us.

Karosis, on 11 August 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:

Path-Shaper, on 11 August 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

It is Day 2. 35 hours and 59 minutes remaining11 Players still alive: Bendal Home, Eloth, Fener, gait, Grasp, Karosis, Lock, Serc, silanah, Skintick, Ultama6 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.Players not voted: Bendal Home, Eloth, Fener, gait, Grasp, Karosis, Lock, Serc, silanah, Skintick, Ultama

Hmm, timer reset anyone?Also am I alone in recalling that game where MM was being used and it listed alts in the order they were input and Gnaw had put scum in first thereby a PS update listed them fist in the "alive" and "not-voted" then the rest alphabetically? Just saying because Gait and Silanah are not capitalised.For the moment that line of enquiry is going to lead me to Vote GaitAlso, low-poster

Karo, on the other hand caught my eye on the reread. So the impassioned speech to Eloth right after Eloth decides it is time to quick seems a little too townie (always suspicious in my book). And then this kind of meh vote for a low poster who is not capitalized? Dunno, seems awfully lazy for someone not a few posts earlier was exhorting town and loyalty. Just wondering why Karo has this odd mix.

Now throws shade (first time I've used that phrase!) at Karosis for being 'too towny'. So that's Monok, Silanah, Lock, and Karosis (not that I don't agree that Karo's vote was silly!).

Ultama, on 17 August 2016 - 01:18 PM, said:

Lock, on 17 August 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

Karosis, on 17 August 2016 - 09:38 AM, said:

Lock, on 17 August 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

Karosis, on 17 August 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

Lock, on 17 August 2016 - 06:50 AM, said:

A lynch is probably not happening today and I'm okay with that. I really don't like the Karosis's what would scum think post, that seems like too much to presume.

I'll also note that Denesmet the N1 victim was aside from being one of dropped names also Ment

Really? Think about it. You get a Role PM that says you're a killer or a symp but doesn't name another killer. What would your thought processes be? Genuinely curious as to what you'd make of the setup from the start of the game.

Yeah two killers with common symp linking them would be probably my first thought but I wouldn't rely on that because there are other options and with the twists that the mods presented this game figuring out setup becomes even more tricky. I dislike mainly the presumptions of their behaviour based on the their presumed thoughts.

But we didn't know there were twists till the voting shenanigans/modpuppet withdrawal/SK CF.

So unless you're suggesting that scum would have had some way to know this wasn't straight M&P from game start then we all started from the same playing field - assuming that we had killers, symp(s) and 1 or 2 of Guard/Finder/Healer. Given that, I believe my assumptions are reasonable. If you disagree then please explain your reasoning.

Allright the modpuppet stuff basically happened during N1 and SK during N2, this gives you D1 and partially D2 depending on how much you wanna count that. I still wouldn't rely on my guess of game setup and I would certainly not bother with any signal acknowledgements You said killer probably didn't know about sk from role PM which I agree with, but that doesn't mean they couldn't think it's existence a possiblity.


Btw this seems to resemble the signals acknowledging you were talking about, doesn't it?

Karosis, on 10 August 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

Lock, on 10 August 2016 - 06:16 AM, said:

High fi( r )st Lock reporting for duty!

Edit: spaces in the brackets

Skintick, on 10 August 2016 - 06:31 AM, said:

Second-in-command

Suspicious Bastard of the 5th checking in

Karosis, on 10 August 2016 - 08:46 AM, said:

Monok Ochem, on 10 August 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

In the words of He-Man,

"I have the Power!"

Vote Lock

What are you doing? Fener is in game and you're voting for someone not-Fener?

Vote Monok

If the symp links the two killers, you just damned yourself...

I am not sure how much we can rely on all this because we are assuming the symp was signalling, the killer(s) were actively seeking, and that the symp succeeded/is still alive/etc.

By the way, I have been puzzling over it, but what is the difference between a lone killer and a serial killer? Is it the symp?

Long post above, but my eye is drawn to that final line. Speculating about your own role there, Ultama?

[Gait]

Ultama, on 17 August 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

Got something buzzing in your bonnet BH? I mean I know you are close to victory, but don't fuck it up now.

I am at the gym and am going to do my review when I get home. See you all then.

I already said how much I didn't like this post. Already on the counterattack, behaving in much the same way as Bendal.

Ultama, on 18 August 2016 - 02:08 AM, said:

Ok Back in Black, here we go. I don't know if you all remember the paraphrase, too townie to be town. I get the feeling BH exhibits some of this behavior, and more telling, actually critiques the same in others, another subconscious trait (you talk about what you are or what you do). The first Day BH comes in swinging. He fervently establishes Monok just HAS to go, and in the meantime gives the stink eye set up to looking at Lock and Gasp (wonder why both were around for so long?)

Bendal Home, on 11 August 2016 - 02:48 AM, said:

Well that read up is a complete monkey fuck. (See what I did there) :)I am in the unfortunate position of finding myself in agreement with Eloth. One the one hand I admire a good gamble by town to try to trap scum. But monoks play is just so much wifom that him and gasp have now put them selves squarely in the to much trouble to keep around camp. I have several problem with this type of play. A. What kind of nut bag starts off the game trying to both vpi and trap scum. B. What kinds of other players actually defend that kind of behavior and consider it acceptable. Looking at you lock and gasp. C. There seems to be no thought to the down side potential. Which runs counter to how I play. Wcs every time all the time. Monok has to go. To much wifom around him and to much more potential in the days to come. vote monok

Just as good is a townie that quotes the game rules and goes on a rant about the evils of breaking them. I believe the PS used the word "peanut gallery" shortly after the below. The thing that gets me is how of the few initial posts of BH, they are both completely over the top and almost establishing a persona for himself in the game: self-righteous townie.

Bendal Home, on 11 August 2016 - 03:28 PM, said:

Grasp, on 11 August 2016 - 02:41 PM, said:

Liosan, on 11 August 2016 - 02:36 PM, said:

Grasp, on 11 August 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

Dear lord you people are dense. Voting out a PI cause you don't like the way he plays is a ridiculous move. You should have left him for scum to waste a kill on.

So day 1 and you've already PId him?

Yeah, he pulled a move I've seen a million times, and it's brilliant even if it does skirt the 'no reveals' rule in a frustrating way. Frankly, the only way to prevent such a thing is for the mod to post the RI PM right off the bat, then there's no using the wording to PI yourself, which is what Monok did with the "I have the power" comment and Lock VPI'd himself by noting where it likely comes from.I mean, believe what you will, that's fine. But I think that there were much more interesting people to look at - i.e. Silanah, Denesmet and Eloth - who've all professed to not understanding what we're on about. I certainly won't be moving my vote over to someone I am pretty sure is RI.

It is a bullshit move intended to attempt to VPI himself. It is potentially game breaking and you and lock should be ashamed of yourselves as mafia players for encouraging it. It has not happened a million times there have only been 150 total mafia games played on this forum. So unless you have played 999,850 on different forums (if so then you have fallen on hard mafia times my friend) then you are full of shit. I have played in most of the mafia games on this forum and day one antics like this has only happened in a handful of games. Each time to the detriment of town. Every single time someone in town has attempted to use wording of a role pm to vpi themselves and or others it diminishes the game and the hard work that other put into the game to actually find real connections and interactions. Not to mention that the attempted use of the wording of a pm violates rule B12 (see below)B12) Reveal any information about their role within the game when such reveals are forbidden (this is only forbidden in certain games). When this rule is applied to

Path-Shaper, on 10 August 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

Game Specific RulesDays are 36 hours. Nights are as instantaneous as possible.NO REVEALS OF ROLES ARE ALLOWED.

As a mod I would have modkilled Monoc and if that broke then game then stopped the game and ran a different scenario. Encouraging behavior that potentially breaks the game for all other players in the game is not just a violation of the written rules but also a selfish move that shows no appreciation for the game nor for your fellow players who do not want to play that way. Now if we can get done with this and move on then this game can still be played and enjoyed. End rant.

And the pattern continues, with sympathetic pats to Eloth over the game no longer being M&P, but still taking the opportunity to catastrophize with a "fubar" comment at the end. But he seems to be calming down too...

Bendal Home, on 11 August 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

There are several players who only sign up to play M/P games. So advertising as a M/P then saying it is a tmdi 5-6 is kind of false advertising. I don't blame Eloth for asking to be replaced or modkilled. Personally if I had known that this was a TMDI 5/6 I might have been less harsh on tatts. I can't help but feel that this game has gotten out of control and is no boarding on complete fubar.

And slowly we hear less and less from him.

Bendal Home, on 12 August 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

I am out today and the weekend. I won't be on hardly at all. I will catch up on Monday.

And then he backs off, no longer willing to lynch, now the cautious townie...

Bendal Home, on 15 August 2016 - 08:19 PM, said:

I am disinclined to lynch. I don't like either one of the cases/reasoning. Gasp got pulled into the cluster with Tatts. Ok so people think he might be a symp. Ok well then who is he symping? Monok who turned out to be RI. I guess Fake symping. That doesn't seem like it is going to get anything. People feel that Silanah's reaction to seeing a guard be killed was over the top. I don't really see it. Certainly not enough to convince me to vote for someone. I am not sure who I like as scum. There are several that I don't have any read on which makes me suspicious due to the abstinence of information.

...but still with a streak of self righteousness

Bendal Home, on 16 August 2016 - 02:01 PM, said:

This game has become a complete random shit show. Modkills, players self destructing, Two town roles gone, a SK killed. Yep a complete and total shit sow. With that in mind I think that it is time to get off of the Monok train and start to take looks at people who have been trying to drive the game forward.

But here is where things get interesting. Starting out with "Contrived feelings of sadness." Pot and kettle with all the rage that he has been spewing forth. And moreover, accusations of me leading the thread, after day one adamantly going after Monok and then suggesting Lock and Grasp are to be looked at. It is also interesting how thoughtful he has become. The earlier posts were long and full of vitrol, but really, how many cases did he build? One on Monok? How often did he vote? He didn't vote day 2. He didn't vote day 3. Awfully inactive for someone so "interested."

Bendal Home, on 17 August 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

Grasp, on 17 August 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

Nooooo!!! Lock was my VPI! Ah well... That means killer is among the rest of you lot...I've no read on most of you. I believe that Gait and that Karosis are most likely RI - but where has Bendal Home even been? Ultama I have no real read on either.

Contrived feelings of sadness. Tatt's actions at the beginning of the game coupled with the mod kills have thrown me out of my game zone. So I have found some better things to due until I feel the call to come back and give a shit. From a quick read up I feel that Ultama is attempting to lead the thread and would be my choice for scum. However I can not put together a sold reason for that conclusion. Just a feeling reading over his posts that he is setting up and driving suspects. I have a minor feeling on the layout of the game. I was not expecting a SK to be in this game and the addition of one indicates that it is not a tmdi 1-2 game. But if I had created this game and tossed in both a guard and a healer and included a SK and a killer. One thing that I noticed is that other then the night that Skin and Serc were killed there was no other 2 kill night. Which leads me to believe that either the healer got lucky the first night. Or the second killer had a delayed component to it. I am discounting the second one because adding something like that will automatically drive up tmdi and make it harder for town to win even with multiple town roles. So if we look at it from the perspective that the game started out with town roles of a healer and a guard and then a SK and a separate killer and perhaps symp. That would be somewhat a balanced game. Then we are left with the conclusion that this game has boiled down to town having no roles and there being WCS a killer and symp. Now if you consider tatts "brilliant move" a way for a symp to out all of the roled town players (which it looks like he did) then you could conclude that he was the symp. Of course that would not be playing in the WCS so I will leave that be. Most likely there is a killer and I am going to assume a symp. Town has no roles and there is very little remaining information to go off of. Other then the silanah lynch.

Path-Shaper, on 15 August 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

It's a lynch!10 Players still alive: Bendal Home, Fener, gait, Grasp, Karosis, Lock, Serc, silanah, Skintick, Ultama6 votes to lynch, 5 votes to go to night.6 Votes for silanah ( Ultama, Serc, gait, Grasp, Lock, Karosis )2 Votes for Grasp ( Skintick, silanah )Players not voted: Bendal Home, FenerThe town gathered around the old tree to witness the hanging of the old dragon Silanah. A worried quiet overtook them as they realized they had again strung up one of their own. Silanah was Andorion and R.I.

Hmmm I feel that Gait is more likely to be town. Karosis could be a well playing scum or town. Gasp could be a symp or town and Ultama I have a very uneasy feeling about. That is where I stand.

Always love it when people start talking about WCS and speculating on time left.

Bendal Home, on 17 August 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

On the WCS chance that there is still a symp left alive I would ask that people refrain from voting until everyone has posted at least some thoughts.

And then, not quoted here, we have him starting to freak a little. Is this burst of activity and pushiness (despite his supposed disenchantment with the game) a sign of what is really going on in his head?

You tell me.

And finally the assessment of Bendal, which I already pointed out exactly what issues I had with in an earlier post.

So lots to question here as well, a lot of pushing and nudging at certain (indeed, almost all) players. As with Bendal, there are a couple of posts which particularly stand out as scummy.


Alright, time for my coup de grace.

[Gait]

Bendal Home, on 18 August 2016 - 04:35 PM, said:

Gait, on 18 August 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

OMGs. I'll do my Ultama analysis first, but I think I've spotted something in my reread.

Gait nice symp work. You are going back over the same thing that you went over yesterday when you were deflecting from Ultima. Now you are going through your symp play book and covering the pages in as many quotes and posts as possible because you know that the more you muddy things the less chance that Karosis and Gasp (just to irritate you) will bother looking back at the earlier posts.

I hope that Karosis and Grasp notice that Gait and Ultima really started to get worked up and trying throwing up posts after posts once I locked on to Ultima as scum.

Gait is playing from the classical symp book now.

No answers, no responses, no replies, just dismissal and defensiveness and definitive claims without an evidence base.

But wait till you see what I've found.

[Gait]

This is Bendal's very first post.

Bendal Home, on 10 August 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

I'm back in black. OH yeah!

And this is the beginning of Ultama's post in which they outline a case on Bendal:

Ultama, on 18 August 2016 - 02:08 AM, said:

Ok Back in Black, here we go.

<snip>

Notice that Ultama's has capitalised 'Back' and 'Black', they want it to be noticed. Why do they use this phrase? It doesn't seem to make sense in the context. Except that Bendal had already used it.


So here's what I'm saying: Ultama is Bendal's symp, and is telling Bendal "I am your fucking symp, douchebag!" Ultama, as outlined in my analysis, has cast aspersions on a whole lot of players, but never Bendal, until Bendal came out with the attack on Ultama.

Now you're going to say, but wait Gait, Ultama has made a case on Bendal AND voted for them. Au contraire, says Gait, Ultama only voted for Bendal when I pressured them to do so, even after outlining a case in which they seemed to be convinced of Bendal's scumminess. Bendal, on the other hand, also only voted after I questioned them about it - for a different reason, they were waiting to see if anyone would jump on ahead of them.

As for Ultama's case itself: Well, first, as I've already said, it's weak. And I've shown in my own analysis how much more you can do with Bendal's posts, which Ultama did not. I think at this point Ultama is resigned to being lynched, is telling Bendal he's an idiot (notice Ultama's vote on Bendal where he calls it OMGUS, they mean that quite literally), but at the same time is hopeful that Bendal can then turn the case to focus on me after Ultama turns up RI.


So there you go, they're both scum, and I would be happy voting for either of them