Malazan Empire: Shadowthrone - Malazan Empire

This is an old thread from the other forum. Info for those of you who haven't read MoI yet.

Ouki


Aragorn
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Hey,

I am at a bit of a loss here and was hoping someone could help me out. My problem is with shadowthrone and the rope. It is my understanding that kellanved and Dancer ascended to become these two gods. But how is that possible? They should have already been in existence right?

~Aragorn


JamesThornhill
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Kellanved and Dancer ascended to become new gods named Shadowthrone and the Rope, the positions they took had previously been unoccupied in an old house that had been empty for a while. We do not know whether the names they took were the same as the last ones to hold their positions.

The confusion arrises from slightly dubious timeline where Quick Ben's history of becoming a high priest (under his old name) of a new God who as a mortal wanted Quick Ben (under his old name)dead. How this can be? Well Erikson has altered certain events as he progressed from GOTM to DG.


echo
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I also am confused by the chronology.

Adelphon Ben Delat was a (the ?) high priest of shadows in the Seven Cities prior to becoming a Bridgeburner. This was in the early days of the Malazan empire and prior to the Emperor's Ascension to Shadowthrone. The emperor found the throne of Shadows unoccupied, yet in DG, Delat is known to Shadowthrone.


The only explanation that I can come up with is -
Not only did the warren Menas/Shadows exist prior to the Emperor's Ascension, but it also had a (perhaps nascient) doctrine and clergy (to which Delat belonged). The position of King remained vacant and the warren was weak. Recall that almost everyone was disparaging of Delat's original powers. With Ascension the Emperor gained the memories of the actual Throne of Shadows and through these the past dealings with Delat.


JamesThornhill
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Or Erikson messed up the timeline and has put in inconsistancies.


gholem
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Hold on there a second fellas!!!!
I thought that Quick Ben was the High Priest for Hood???????
I know I'm right on this,aren't I???

Tiocfaidh ár lá!!


Asmodeus de Yakshas
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No. You're not. QB was a High Priest of Shadow.


gholem
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OOps!!
Ya now that I think about it, I remember:b
But I gotta ask, why do the hounds show allegiance to Shadowthrone?? They were around way before him???

Tiocfaidh ár lá!!


Asmodeus de Yakshas
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Because he is the King of High House Shadow, the God of Shadow. The Hounds are.... hounds, and thus subordinate to him. It's the same way as when a country gets a new king. It doesn't matter that he may be a lot younger than his military commanders and advisors - they still has to follow his orders.


Mirth
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<FONT size="2">quote:
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Not only did the warren Menas/Shadows exist prior to the Emperor's Ascension, but it also had a (perhaps nascient) doctrine and clergy (to which Delat belonged)
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I think you may have something there echo. If this is infact true then the timeline may go something like this:
1) Seven cities campaign - Quick Ben is high priest of Shadow (the warren rather than Shadowthrone)
2) The assassination - emperor and dancer are assassinated by surly and assend.
3) After Ascension - Quick Ben discovers who Shadowthrone and the Rope are and not wanting to serve a mad emperor turned god, he burns his priestly vestment. (This would also explain shadowthrones hatred of QB, not because he abandoned Shadow but because he turned his back on his emperor.)
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"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then give up. No use being a damned fool about it."


JamesThornhill
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Good call Mirth, so Kellanved ascends to post of God, sees an old enemy who is supposed to be dead is his high priest who then does a runner and burns the robes before Shadowthrone can settle the scores. That would fit best of all the explanations I have seen or thought of.


agares
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In regard to House of Shadow being old or new or otherwise, somehere in DHG there is reference to the Shouse of Shadow appearing in the Deck of Dragons shortly after the Death/ Ascension of the Emporer.
Also Kulp is told taht the Meanass warren (illusion and shadow) stems from the tiste edur warrer. Therefore the Shadow warren can be a new annexation of the elder warren, that in the time of the Malazan Empire is not much in use.


Asmodeus de Yakshas
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The Elder warren of Shadow is Kurlad Emurlahan. It is the warren of the Tiste Edur, and thus not accesible to humans. Meanas is the "child" of the Elder warren, and accesible to humans.


echo
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Mirth, that was pretty much my thinking.

Though I get the impression that QB did the runner when he joined the bridgeburners (hiding as a lowly squad mage). Most people thought him (& Kalam) dead at that point.

NB: Kalam also left the Claw.


and_some
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Another take would be that once ascending, Dance and Kellanved transcend the mortal timeline and effectively have 'always been'.

In which case, it will be interesting to see what happens to Rallick Nom and Vorcan.

Just a thought....


Azalae
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Azalae: What you say is technically correct but a little misleading. Shadowthrone IS the king of High House Shadow. But the warren is the Meanas warren which is a child/gateway of the Elder shadow warren Kurald Emurhlan. So Shadowthrone is the King of Meanas , but the King of Meanas is the guardian to Kurald Emurlahn.
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"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then give up. No use being a damned fool about it."


Azalae
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Mirth,

I see. My mistake then. Thanks for pointing it out for me.

Steven Erikson said that the whole story about Kellanved and Quick Ben would be explain in the next books. So let's just wait and see.

It might be a "glitch" in the story. But I imagine keeping track on the whole thing is not easy. And he writes a great story. So if he made a mistake, I certainly will forgive him. (heh, as if he cares anyway )

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