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The UK Politics Thread (Formerly the Brexit thread)

#1081 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 07:28 AM

View PostKhellendros, on 05 September 2019 - 12:28 PM, said:

View PostMaark Abbott, on 05 September 2019 - 11:44 AM, said:

View PostKhellendros, on 05 September 2019 - 08:18 AM, said:

View PostMaark Abbott, on 05 September 2019 - 07:26 AM, said:

View PostMezla PigDog, on 04 September 2019 - 09:41 PM, said:

Yes you say that about the Lib Dems but in affluent yet kind of progressive yet staunchly anti-Labour constituencies like mine, the Lib Dems are the only party with a chance of beating the Tories. Last GE the combined Lib/Lab total was marginally lower than the Conservative total. To have a chance of beating them the Remain parties will have to club together, irrespective of previous taint. The sensible option here is to put all of your chips on Lib Dem because there are a lot of Remain Tories here who would never vote for Corbyn but could vote Lib Dem.

Maybe the Labour manifesto will be so awesome as to convince people but I think the media portrayal of Corbyn has done it's work here.


If they hate the Tories, why would people in your area vote for Yellow Tories?

Lib Dem MPs vote in line with austerity and in favour of Tory legislation. Let's not try to pretend that Lib Dems are anything EXCEPT Tories by a different colour, because their voting record betrays that they are just that.

The fact that left-leaning publications dislike a left-leaning socialist who by the European standard is very bog standard shows how far to the right politics in this country have gone; if they laud the right-wing Lib Dems, what chance does anyone who is actually on the left have?

We have to consider that this is just part of the smear campaign run by big press, because anything on the left is harmful to their owners. And that's at the baseline what Brekshit has been about from the start, so of course anyone who asks so much as a question about it must be vilified and besmirched.


In my area it's Tory or Lib Dem, there effectively is no Labour option, who get only a handful of the tens of thousands of votes. So yes, I do vote Lib Dem even though I don't support them. Whatever you might think about their record in government (which is terrible and they were punished for it at the ballot box), at the local level in my experience it has always been better to have a Lib Dem MP than a Tory one.

I also don't think it's as simple as 'harmful to the owners' as to why the media is wary of Corbyn. For example, the Guardian doesn't have an owner or shareholders - it's an independent paper, run through a trust set up decades ago. And Grief is right that Corbyn is hardly the ideal figurehead for a Brexit reversal, being a known Eurosceptic himself. I'm certainly not saying that he should not be criticised or critiqued for some things, and he has disappointed me in a number of ways since he became leader (though I still absolutely love the last policy manifesto), not least with the handling of antisemitism within the party and its supporters. But I do find that there is a palpable enthusiasm to pick up on any criticism and run and run with it.


Are we talking actual, palpable anti-Semitism, or criticism of a state (which is rightly deserving of said criticism given that they are perpetuating a genocide)?

I see one of the CUK squatters joined the lib-dems. I am unsurprised that they would accept, frankly - CUK were a party of politicians who only wanted the austerity status quo, as the LDs have shown they support.

Whilst it's always best not to have a non-Tory in power, a yellow Tory is only about 0.1% better. It would take a huge effort to cause me to trust that party or their representatives again.



Just because Netanyahu likes to conflate the two issues doesn't mean you should also from the opposite perspective! Yes, we are very much talking about real antisemitic behaviour and actions, as evidenced by videos of supporters making such remarks. For example, the MP you're referring to in your post who's just switched to the Lib Dems - Luciana Berger - has very much been the target of antisemitic vitriol (for those who don't know, Berger used to be a Labour MP and Corbyn critic before leaving to found a new, very unsuccessful party, Change UK, and has now defected from them to the Lib Dems). Now I personally dislike where Berger stands on a lot of issues, but you cannot deny that she has been the subject of a torrent of antisemitic abuse on social media by people who also claim to support Corbyn. While Corbyn and his team have publicly denounced this a number of times, they have been achingly slow to put words into tangible actions. When they have, they've usually followed it up with some foot-in-mouth decisions. Like when the respected rights campaigner Shami Chakrabarti was put in charge of an independent investigation into antisemitism within the party: The report found that while there was a toxic atmosphere at times, racism and antisemitism was not endemic. Okay, fine, but then Corbyn went ahead and immediately after made Chakrabarti a Labour peer in the House of Lords! I mean, talk about looking like you're throwing impartiality out the window! Rightly or wrongly, that decision had the effect of utterly undermining the report's findings.

Is the issue of antisemitism being exploited to score political points against Corbyn? Yes. Does it mean that there isn't an issue to deal with? No. The two are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately the whole debate has become toxic, with both critics and defenders now just condemning whatever the other does or says before even really digesting it.

Oh, and I'm sure these same issues apply to all the political parties really (the focus in the Tory party is currently on anti-Muslim rhetoric), but just because "it's the same for everyone else" doesn't mean it isn't an issue which should be addressed and tackled.


I'm not conflating on my part - just asking if we are talking about actual anti-Semitism (as per your examples) or what we might want to refer to as Netenyahuisms to differentiate between the two. Too often I've seen the latter used and raised, so it's often tricky to infer exactly which wing a point falls under (especially online). I feel like the Terror State would probably warrant its own thread anyway so we'll leave off on that particular regime and its actions.

Back to the lib dems - their votes on policy perpetuated the issues that caused the 2016 result in the first place, then they switch to claiming to be anti-Brexit whilst continuing to vote in line with the Tories? How do people actually vote for them in good faith? Same with the ones who went to CUK - gravy train perpetuators.



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#1082 User is offline   Mezla PigDog 

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Posted 06 September 2019 - 01:19 PM

People vote for Lib Dems because they think the Labour Party can't be trusted with the economy and the Tories are too harsh on the poor and too conservative. It is generally people who have always been reasonably well off and don't understand what true poverty and lack of opportunity in the UK looks like so they opt for the middle of the road.
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#1083 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 07:21 AM

View PostMezla PigDog, on 06 September 2019 - 01:19 PM, said:

People vote for Lib Dems because they think the Labour Party can't be trusted with the economy and the Tories are too harsh on the poor and too conservative. It is generally people who have always been reasonably well off and don't understand what true poverty and lack of opportunity in the UK looks like so they opt for the middle of the road.


If the middle of the road is where the Tories sit, sure. Because the Lib Dems are austerity enablers and rabid capitalist supporters. They, like the Tories, exist to enrich the wealthy at the expense of everyone else, and their time in office during ConDem and subsequent voting record show this.

That they're making a comeback is concerning.



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#1084 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 08:44 AM

Well, Tories suck, Labour currently sucks, where else to go? LibDem or Green seem the only two reasonable choices. And a lot of people still see the Green party as a bit airy-fairy and one-dimensional. Lack of choice is the UK's real issue, due to this ingrained two-party politics system.
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#1085 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 07:20 AM

View PostGorefest, on 09 September 2019 - 08:44 AM, said:

Well, Tories suck, Labour currently sucks, where else to go? LibDem or Green seem the only two reasonable choices. And a lot of people still see the Green party as a bit airy-fairy and one-dimensional. Lack of choice is the UK's real issue, due to this ingrained two-party politics system.


Greens are where my policy votes go, but I'm not above voting Labour tactically to shit on Tories or Yellow Tories (Liberal? After bringing in some of the homophobic and racist scum they have lately? HAH!).

Thinking of shitting on Tories, Boris' losing streak in the Commons is a beautiful thing.



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#1086 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 11:46 AM

Corbyn is a pure Brexiter at heart as well. So voting Labour wont help matters much.
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#1087 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 12:44 PM

View PostGorefest, on 10 September 2019 - 11:46 AM, said:

Corbyn is a pure Brexiter at heart as well. So voting Labour wont help matters much.


Perhaps - but I'd trust him with it far more than any Tory.
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#1088 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 07:15 AM

Rumours that the redacted sections of the Yellowhammer papers concern plans around martial law, and let's face it, if the government don't want something public due to the concern it will cause...

But we voted on something once, democracy is concrete and unchanging, we must therefore carry out the will of the breklets, amirite



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#1089 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 12 September 2019 - 12:35 PM

Yellowhammer made for some grim reading.
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#1090 User is online   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 15 September 2019 - 05:27 PM

'Boris Johnson told a British newspaper that he was just like the Incredible Hulk when it comes to dealing with criticism over his plans to carry through with Brexit with or without a deal with the European Union. “The madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets,” he told the Daily Mail on Sunday. “Hulk always escaped, no matter how tightly bound in he seemed to be—and that is the case for this country. We will come out on October 31.”'

https://www.thedaily...brexit?ref=home
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#1091 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 16 September 2019 - 07:11 AM

He's such a clueless fucking moron. The whole thing with the Hulk is the internal battle Banner has with him.

Ultimately yellowhammer has demonstrated that they know their whole disaster bet on no deal to appease their backers will massively fuck everything up, so why force it on? To appease loud, red-faced racists? Tch,

Meanwhile one of his equally thick Tory chum derogatorily likened Corbyn to Chicken Run - which was about successfully seizing the means of production. Right wing can't meme.





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#1092 User is offline   Primateus 

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 10:26 AM

British Supreme Court declares Johnson's suspension of parliament illegal and invalid and Bercow has commented that the House of Commons must convene immediately.

So...
Screw you all, and have a nice day!

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#1093 User is offline   Traveller 

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 10:53 AM

Unanimous!
So that's the story. And what was the real lesson? Don't leave things in the fridge.
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#1094 User is offline   Primateus 

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 11:07 AM

View PostTraveller, on 24 September 2019 - 10:53 AM, said:

Unanimous!


Yes.

And already people are decrying the ruling as just another pro-remain plot from the EU.
Screw you all, and have a nice day!

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#1095 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 24 September 2019 - 12:34 PM

View PostPrimateus, on 24 September 2019 - 11:07 AM, said:

View PostTraveller, on 24 September 2019 - 10:53 AM, said:

Unanimous!


Yes.

And already people are decrying the ruling as just another pro-remain plot from the EU.


Yes, the gammons are raging. Let them. They are the British equivalent of MAGA hats.
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#1096 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 25 September 2019 - 08:53 PM

This is good!

This is great!
And this is so gross I wanna puke!
https://www.mirror.c...rs-mps-20195300

They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#1097 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 26 September 2019 - 07:21 AM

Guillotine-chan is the hero we need for Boris.
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#1098 User is online   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 02:04 PM

'Brexitmageddon: Boris vs. Farage Showdown May Blow Up Brexit

[...] [Ann Widdecombe] sent the crowd into raptures by threatening to repeat the trick unless Johnson secures a hard Brexit by Oct. 31. "If he doesn't, then he is going to find that the next general election for him will be like leading the charge of the Light Brigade," she warned, recasting Lord Tennyson's epic poem about a disastrous cavalry charge.

Brexit to right of him,
Brexit to left of him,
Brexit in front of him,
Volleying and thundering...

The next line was drowned out by cheers, but Johnson is well aware of his predicament. When asked his week on the BBC about allegations of sexual misconduct, the prime minister invoked the very next line himself: "Stormed at with shot and shell."

Backstage, Widdecombe explained that Johnson was partly to blame for the position he's found himself in. He made a "do or die" pledge to deliver Brexit by Halloween'

https://www.thedaily...ggedon?ref=home

A line from the poem is sometimes misquoted as 'Theirs but to do or die', but is actually 'Theirs but to do and and die':

'Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.'

https://www.youtube....h?v=MkqUq26z1CE

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 03 October 2019 - 02:07 PM

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#1099 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 03 October 2019 - 04:33 PM

Interestung she would use the Charge of the light brigade. A group of light cavalry who were ordered by their leaders to perform a totally stupid and miscommunicated manouvre which would most likely kill them all and end in slaughter. So is Ann Widdecombe finally admitting that Brexit is a criminal and idiotic fool's quest?
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#1100 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 04 October 2019 - 07:21 AM

View PostGorefest, on 03 October 2019 - 04:33 PM, said:

Interestung she would use the Charge of the light brigade. A group of light cavalry who were ordered by their leaders to perform a totally stupid and miscommunicated manouvre which would most likely kill them all and end in slaughter. So is Ann Widdecombe finally admitting that Brexit is a criminal and idiotic fool's quest?


You take my living standards and I'll take yours too
Your name is funny so I'll deport you
And Brexit is for rich and white, not black
So patrol the cliffs and send them back
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