[Defiance]

Wow, what a read. I think this might be one of my favorite books from Erikson. Forge was dark, but despite moments of humor I'd say Fall was even darker. The themes had way more of an impact on me.

It's difficult to fully gather my thoughts, but I'll attempt to lay them out in some manner:

Goodbye Father. So, Vatha Urusander is dead. This didn't necessarily surprise me, but I didn't see it being the last few paragraphs of the book. Ever since Forge I had a feeling Vatha was going to be killed. I didn't think he'd actually wind up being Father Light (my prediction was Hunn Raal would somehow assume the mantle). I'm wondering where this leaves things now, though, with his heir having been proclaimed. Will others try for the position, or will Father Light remain "turned away" (aka dead) from his children, and the historians/priests spin a lie about it?

I can't quit you, Hunn. So I'm a bastard, but I actually love reading about Hunn Raal. It kind of reminds me how I liked reading about Karos Invictad. Yeah, that probably means I'm a major asshole, but dammit this guy is interesting. I look forward to seeing what machinations he comes up with in the third book, and who brings about his demise.

Catch phrases. There will be peace. There will be justice. Any guesses on what the third book is going to make resonate through our hearts?

What bathroom does Quick Ben use? Well, it was heavily guessed before, but unless something crazy happens in the third book I think everyone is on the same boat that Korya = one of Quick Ben's souls? There's that twelve lifetimes line (I forget the exact wording), but what stood out to me even more was the line about her being set against Errastas one day.

Any idea how Korya and Arathan are going to play into the final book? I'll be a little disappointed if they don't have a major role to play, since they've been built up for two books.

Revelations abound. I was really surprised by just how much this book went into K'rul's gift of magic. It was also great to get further understanding of the various Azathanai and their motivations. I look forward to seeing more of Skillen Droe and whatever part he'll have to play in the final book. Unless I'm mistaken, he's not anywhere in the Book of the Fallen, is he?

Also, I love how the Shake storyline is progressing. I think it's going to make the Shake storyline in MBotF even more satisfying to read in the future. Glyph and Narad are a good pair, which was a pleasant surprise considering I didn't like Narad in Forge (who did?).

I'm interested in seeing how the Jheleck hostages end up becoming magic-infused protectors of Shadow.

Also, how tragic is the potential revelation that Draconus has been through all of this time and time and time again, only to have his heart broken every time?

Bad parenting. So, Korlat is the magic-rape daughter of Draconus and Sandalath? Or, as I understand it, Draconus's Finnest, which contained a significant portion of his power/will, but it was twisted by Spite and Envy's bad vibes? If anyone has further insight, please share.

War isn't a game. I probably would have felt cheated if another author had the big battle play out the way Erikson did. But this many books in we all know Erikson can write a battlefield scene, so an alternative didn't make me feel cheated. What he did worked, and it worked extremely well. I think the alternative he chose made it even more poignant, with us getting three different versions. I loved the characters before, but dammit if those words between Anomander and Draconus weren't as awesome as they were tragic.

A little light in the darkness. I was very pleased with how Wreneck's story wrapped up. I think, along with Gripp and Hish not taking part in the final battle, the way things ended for him was the only happiness we got to end this book.

What awaits on the Walk ahead. So, what events do we anticipate seeing in the next book? How many memories are going to be retconned/distorted in regards to the flashbacks we got in Toll the Hounds and The Crippled God? If I recall, a lot of them came from Sandalath, and she's about the furthest thing from a reliable narrator possible.

1) Magic fracturing various realms and them being placed in warrens.
2) The Hust Legion going to their final stand in Starvald Demelain.
3) Tiam's manifestation, and various Tiste drinking her blood.
4) Will Emurlahn be shattered here? We don't have an Icarium and Gothos isn't residing in an Azath House, so I'm really curious how this warren split is actually going to work out.
5) Hood sits his ass down on an icy throne.
6) I'm trying to jog my memory of TCG here, but isn't it said that the Shake originally stood against the Liosan for Mother Dark at the First Shore? Can someone refresh me? This seems like it'll be a very messy affair, given that the Andii and Liosan are all in the same place at the moment. I'm not sure if Glyph will particularly care to make distinctions between the two factions since they've made "peace" with one another.

Best line. "Hunn Raal fucked a cookfire."

[worry]

A lot of good stuff there.

Re: "bad parenting" -- a lot of people seem to be landing on Envy and Spite for that scene and I have no idea why. It's OE who speaks through Sand (the "next time you see Mother Dark tell her about this" rant), Sand has just been thinking about the fire she set in the stables, and the whole ritual involves conceiving a child (in a related but even more perverse, horrifying manner than OE produces her clay figurines). Envy and Spite are pipsqueaks compared to their dad, let alone OE in all her glory. And she certainly didn't show up just to protect Wreneck and Ivis. She's there to do damage to Draconus.

On WIS: 1) Yeah that's gonna be awesome. K'rul's gonna have success with the Eleint bargain, I suppose, but I can see the splitting of the realms as a sad moment for him, another gift gone awry.
4) I don't see that happening in the trilogy, but some of Shadow's vulnerabilities/weakenings might be established.
5) Heck yeah.
6) I can't help you with TCG, but I agree it might be a mess. I do think it's interesting that Hunn Raal's advice to Urusander before the battle is "Make your faith a wall" -- definitely evoked Lightfall for me. We are also yet to see mention of the position of Awakening Dawn, to go with Watch, Twilight, and Sister of Nights.

[Drusas Achamian]

I remember that there were several flashbacks by Endest Silann in ''Toll The Hounds'' of a civil war in Kharkanas. Not between Liosan and Andii, but between different Andii Highborn Families. Hish Tulla was mentioned, but also Vanut Degalla, Manalle and Drethdenan. I got the impression that this civil war between the different Tiste Andii Noble factions was the result of the chaotic nature of the blood of Tiam, that the leaders of the Highborn Families became Eleint Soletaken, by the ancient strain of Draconean blood in the Tiste, or by, more recently. drinking the blood of Tiam or other Eleint.

Maybe the history of the Tiste after the events of '' Fall Of Light '' can be reconstructed as follows:

1. Renarr covers up the death of Father Light / Vatha Urusander (in the last sentences in the book, it looked like he invited his own death) by pronouncing that he 'turned away'.
2. The Andii Nobles become disaffected with the union between Mother Dark and Father Light. Afraid of sorcery, Anomander Rake seeks his own power up by drinking the blood of Eleint / or awaking a possible ancient ability of the Tiste to transform into Dragons.
3. Other Andii Nobles follow his example and become Soletaken Eleint as well (including Rake's followers like Korlat, Prazek, Dathenar, Orfantal).
4. War between the Liosan, maybe led by Hunn Raal and/or Osserc, and the Andii Soletaken, with assistance from the Shake (a coalition of the remaning Shake monks of the monasteries and the Watch, led by Griff and Narak).
5. The war ends in a stalemate. As a result of the machinations of K'rul and all the magic going on, Kurald Galain and Kurald Liosan become different Realms/Holds/Warrens.
6. Hunn Raal becomes the first ruler of Kurald Liosan, as 'Champion of Light'. There will be a marriage union between hun Issgin descendants and the Fant family, the later Champions of Light. Renarr becomes the Protector in 'Dancer's Lament'.
7. The formation of the Tiste Edur: a coaltion of Shake, Deniers and disaffected Legion soldiers and nobles, led by Scara Bandaris and Kagamandra Tulas Shorn (the original king of the Edur?). Caplo Dreem becomes Edgewalker/
8. As a result of the chaotic Draconic nature of the Soletaken transformations of their noble Andii leaders, a civil war ensues. Different Andii-faction leave Galain for the ''Wu''-world.

This post has been edited by Drusas Achamian: 15 May 2016 - 10:17 AM

[TheMostHonourableBloke]

Great points from both of you...hmmm shall i read the MBOTF for the third time?

[worry]

Dang, Drusas, you've really thought about this!

[Axey]

We have two groups of dragon blood drinkers in the Tiste world. The Andii faction who include Anomander, Korlat, Orfantal, Prazek, Darthenar (interesting that these two do not follow the Hust into Starvald Demalain) and the Shadow group which includes Scara Bandaris, Menandore, Sukul Ankhadu and Sheltatha Lore and interestingly enough Osserc (the only liossan). Ive said before on here that it does not have to be Tiam to supply the blood as the Liossan used a dragon in TCG to become soletaken. My guess would be Sillanah for the Andii and Teloras and Curdle for the Shadow faction.

Plus the Andii split into two groups I imagine. Some going with Silchas Ruin and some with Anomander. I fear the High Born Tiste will be massacred at some point too.

Its a good guess about Caplo becoming Edgewalker but going on from a description from an earlier book, Edgewalker wears faded tattered armour and has a rusty sword. Which would rule out an assassin.

It's fun trying to guess the outcome isnt it.

[ISTN4249]

Wild take: Edgewalker is Wareth

[Kasig]

ISTN4249, on 21 May 2016 - 11:31 PM, said:

Wild take: Edgewalker is Wareth

I don't think so. In The Bonehunters, during a conversation between Cotillion and 3 certain dragons, with Edgewalker also present, one of those dragons, Ampelas, says this on the subject of Elder Gods:

Quote

"Even when Darkness ruled alone, there were elemental forces. Moving unseen until the coming of Light."

This means Azathanai, as I have come to understand them, to me. After that discussion Egdwalker tells Cotillion:

Quote

"You may consider me ... an elemental force."

I think Edge was/is an Azathanai. After reading FoL I believe a viable theory is he may be separated from at least a part of his power and thus "incomplete" like Draconus at the battle the Valley of Tarns.

On the subject of his identity, even after all the new Azathanai we meet in FoL, I still think Grizzin Farl makes the most sense. Protector of something already broken, sundered and still sundering actually ("The Sundering continues to this day..." - Eloth) and that has been usurped- Shadow.

This post has been edited by Kasig: 22 May 2016 - 06:20 PM

[Siergiej]

I think Edgewalker is Yedan Narad. These are quotes from when Yedan is named by Glyph:

Quote

Glyph moved to settle into a crouch beside him. ‘I name you the Watch. In our old language: Yedan.’
Narad grunted. ‘I do little else.’
No. For the time of night, when you wake. When you rise and walk the camp. The time of night when your haunts return to you. Your nerves tremble. A restless thing takes you, a thing you cannot name, unless you clothe it in your deepest fears. You wake and stand, when others would fight back into sleep, into losing themselves again. This is a terrible vigil, a solitary vigil. It is the vigil of one who stands alone.’

Quote

‘The Watch is always alone. Their story makes them so. We see in your eyes, friend, that you have never known love. Perhaps this is necessary, for the task awaiting you.’

Quote

‘The Watch, then, must guard a bridge destined to fall. The Watch who stands, and stands fast, is our harbinger of failure.’

This ties nicely into a conversation about failure between Edgewalker and Cotillion at the very beginning of The Crippled God.


Then he has the vision in which he is Yedan Derryg. A moment later Anomander arrives and there's this:

Quote

‘When the fires take the sea,’ Narad said, seeing once again that terrible shoreline where he had walked. The hand on his shoulder held him with a savagely tight grip now, sending pain lancing through him. ‘Upon the shoreline,’ he said. ‘There, when you ask it of us, we will stand.’

Quote

‘When Lord Anomander calls, will we answer?’
Narad looked across at Glyph. ‘He won’t have to, Glyph. That place I described? I fear we will already be there.’
Standing fast, upon the shores of peace. In her name.
‘Glyph?’
‘Yedan Narad?’
‘Your old language. Have you a name for a shoreline?’
The hunter nodded. ‘Yes.’
‘What is it, then?’
‘Emurlahn.’
Yes. There.

We know from Fall of Light that Deniers in the forest become the first Edur, with their skins turning grey. And this particular conversation obviously refers to the Shake protecting the Lightfall, but we know that their actual task will be to protect the shoreline - Emurlahn. We know from Malazan books that Anomander was involved in protecting the Throne of Shadow, so having the first Watch among the Edur 'installed' in Kurald Emurland as protector of the realm makes perfect sense. And the fact that Andarist was involved in guarding the throne makes it ironic becaus of Enesdia.

[Skywalker]

Defiance, on 15 May 2016 - 04:00 AM, said:

I look forward to seeing more of Skillen Droe and whatever part he'll have to play in the final book. Unless I'm mistaken, he's not anywhere in the Book of the Fallen, is he?

I reckon Skillen Droe is the reason all the dragons within Starvald Demelain are dead in the main series. He did escape into SD when he chucked the poor Thel Akai into the gate to seal it.

[Flawed]

Been a while………..

Probably the hardest of all his books to read. Some nice reveals and new questions in there. BUT!! What a load of waffle. Come on Steve! The only reason I made it to the end of the book was because of solidarity towards you for all the years of fine reading and enjoyment you have passed my way.

Procrastination in the extreme. Not handsome.

Anyhow, rant over . Hello to any old school forumites still around. Hope you are well.

[WinterPhoenix]

Yedan Narad as Edgewalker makes alot of sense to me, interestingly if it is indeed true it makes one wonder whether Anomander ever discovered Narad's role in the murder/rape of Enesdia. We know perfectly well that he has knowledge of who and what Edgewalker is, as well as his role as regards Emurlahn from the brief snippet of convo we get between him and Kilmandaros where they decide to ally. If he ever discovered Narad's role, one assumes he would have been rather consumed by his 'vengeance'.

[worry]

It's an interesting thought. Could be a first glimmer of the long-term-thinking Rake we come to know, not to mention his self control. And I dunno if the brothers ever become enemies per se, but it does seem like something causes a schism between them, philosophically, and that's as good as any.

[Flawed]

I must of read it wrong. I thought he was never part of the attack. Although in the company his assumed guilt was because he did nothing to stop it / wasn't there to protect her.

[Abyss]

WinterPhoenix, on 19 January 2017 - 07:54 PM, said:

Yedan Narad as Edgewalker makes alot of sense to me, interestingly if it is indeed true it makes one wonder whether Anomander ever discovered Narad's role in the murder/rape of Enesdia. We know perfectly well that he has knowledge of who and what Edgewalker is, as well as his role as regards Emurlahn from the brief snippet of convo we get between him and Kilmandaros where they decide to ally. If he ever discovered Narad's role, one assumes he would have been rather consumed by his 'vengeance'.

Flawed, on 20 January 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

I must of read it wrong. I thought he was never part of the attack. Although in the company his assumed guilt was because he did nothing to stop it / wasn't there to protect her.

Narad? Wasn't he one of the rapists?

I tend to agree, if Rake knew, he would have killed him on the spot.

death rattle, on 19 January 2017 - 08:34 PM, said:

It's an interesting thought. Could be a first glimmer of the long-term-thinking Rake we come to know, not to mention his self control. And I dunno if the brothers ever become enemies per se, but it does seem like something causes a schism between them, philosophically, and that's as good as any.

Narad as Edgewalker as punishment / penance for Enesdia is an intriguing theory. That Edgy is/was Tiste has been hinted at more than once.




As for the brothers, Andarist clearly has issues with Rake at least.

Whether Rake and Silch have an actual feud or it was only ever a ploy to control the divisions among the Andii (hinted at in TtH among other places) is unclear.

[WinterPhoenix]

Yes Narad is consumed by guilt as he was involved in both the attack and the rape, Enesdia dies while he is raping her. It's a rather harrowing scene, even amongst the harrowing scenes Erikson has already given us in his Malazan writings.

As I said above, I believe - as Abyss does - that had the Anomander of the Kharkanas trilogy discovered Narad's involvement he would have killed him summarily - Edgewalker or not, which is of course an interesting conflict. It is, however very interesting to think of this revelation coming later - perhaps after the 'alliance' alluded to in their meeting - after, during or perhaps even as a catalyst for Anomander's change in character - his self-control and long-term thinking as you say death rattle. This could certainly be the fuel for a Silchas/Rake conflict, if indeed such a thing ever occurred.

[Abyss]

Yet Silch was the more draconic and tended towards longer planning. It's suggested he let Scabby betray him so he could wait out a few millennia in the Azath.

[Avernite]

Abyss, on 21 January 2017 - 04:25 AM, said:

Yet Silch was the more draconic and tended towards longer planning. It's suggested he let Scabby betray him so he could wait out a few millennia in the Azath.

Precisely because of that, I don't think Andarist and Silchas ever become real enemies. Grief, Vengeance... those are both emotions, that can conflict. Silchas seems too calculated to fall into that kind of conflict with Andarist (even if he might come into conflict or fake-conflict with Anomander on his way of ruling; where Andarist simply doesn't play).

Anomander, being the seemingly most complete, and hence best to unite them, has shades of both and thus has conflicts with both his brothers.

[Abyss]

Avernite, on 24 January 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

Abyss, on 21 January 2017 - 04:25 AM, said:

Yet Silch was the more draconic and tended towards longer planning. It's suggested he let Scabby betray him so he could wait out a few millennia in the Azath.

Precisely because of that, I don't think Andarist and Silchas ever become real enemies. Grief, Vengeance... those are both emotions, that can conflict. Silchas seems too calculated to fall into that kind of conflict with Andarist (even if he might come into conflict or fake-conflict with Anomander on his way of ruling; where Andarist simply doesn't play).

Anomander, being the seemingly most complete, and hence best to unite them, has shades of both and thus has conflicts with both his brothers.

Otoh, none of them are draconic at this point.Tho the flashbacks in TtH suggest they will be by the time the last round of civil wars hit.

[WinterPhoenix]

Abyss, on 25 January 2017 - 04:27 AM, said:

Avernite, on 24 January 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

Abyss, on 21 January 2017 - 04:25 AM, said:

Yet Silch was the more draconic and tended towards longer planning. It's suggested he let Scabby betray him so he could wait out a few millennia in the Azath.

Precisely because of that, I don't think Andarist and Silchas ever become real enemies. Grief, Vengeance... those are both emotions, that can conflict. Silchas seems too calculated to fall into that kind of conflict with Andarist (even if he might come into conflict or fake-conflict with Anomander on his way of ruling; where Andarist simply doesn't play).

Anomander, being the seemingly most complete, and hence best to unite them, has shades of both and thus has conflicts with both his brothers.

Otoh, none of them are draconic at this point.Tho the flashbacks in TtH suggest they will be by the time the last round of civil wars hit.

This is a point worth remembering, I for one am really hoping we get to see this in the conclusion. After all the only example we have seen thus far of anybody actually drinking dragon's blood went very badly for the Thel Akai in question, I'm really, really interested to see how it all goes down.

This post has been edited by WinterPhoenix: 25 January 2017 - 06:44 AM