[S Ruin]

I got to finish the book yesterday evening and was very impressed. I expect nothing less from Erikson as he is among my top 5 authors across all genres.

A lot of the theories between light, dark and shadow are explained in this book along with a lot more insights on the Azanthai and how they operate. I am sure the readers will be very satisfied.

Minor Spoilers/threads.

- I have a new found respect for Caladan Brood. He is way way more than what you think he is. And by that, I mean he is way more powerful than what was portrayed in the 1st ten books. He is just a very cautious Azanthai/Ascendant and a reluctant user of magic. Erikson hints quite a few times in this book about something between Brood and Draconus i.e. they seem to be mortal enemies. I am very interested to learn more about that story.

- I have always wondered in the earlier books why rake seemed indifferent towards Silchas i.e. why he did not really give a shit when ruin was dumped in the Azath house nor why did he not seek him out when he got released. Well this book might very well explain some of that. Without giving away too much, not all is right between those 2. Rake seems to more or less just tolerate ruin. Unless they are staging some sort of game, which Erikson hinted at in later books but there was just too much real stuff going on to think it is all just an act.

- Towards the end of the book, there is a bit where erikson tackles religion and faith. He really goes in on this topic and kudos to him for taking this on. It’s a bit scary because he hits home on this topic (some people might take offence though). I have always suspected erikson was an introvert (he has to be to be able to drop this amount of knowledge consistently for over a decade now).

- I find the jaghut dialogue highly amusing. There is an absolute classic/priceless scene between Gothos and Hood (like when pacino and de niro had that brief scene together at the coffee shop in the movie Heat – I am not drawing parallels to the dialogue – just the iconic moment).

- There is a scene in the last 2 pages of the book that will hit you like a 10,000 pound Gorilla. This scene is so major and potent and yet so crazy that only Erikson could come up with something like this. It is shock value but shock value in a good way - it more or less turns the whole book on its head and actually explains the upcoming chaos that will most definitely ensue in the final book. Hats off to Erikson.

- No matter what Erikson says about his favourite characters i.e. pust, kruppe, I personally feel his is rake. Maybe favourite is the wrong word; rather I should say the character he respects most. Rake has always been my best character in the malazan world by a mile and this book only confounds that sentiment. He is such a honourable character and this book reveals/sets up why he is how he is when we come across his character in the latter books. Erikson definitely pours the embodiment of what it is to be a great person into the rake character.

- Oh and Draconus is really something else. His character is a pretty conflicting one. A honourable man but also extremely cruel. There is an act he performs in this book that is so cruel/heart wrenching/disgusting that it left me breathless. I had to re read the scene a few times just to make sure my eyes were not deceiving me. I am still not sure about what actually went down in that scene and look forward to discussing it with the participants of this forum. (Abyss, hetan, apt, malcalypse etc. - sharpish)


All in all a fantastic book. Thank you Mr Erikson - you are the only author in the world that i will drop everything for and carve out 24hrs of my day to read their book.

This post has been edited by S Ruin: 18 April 2016 - 11:26 AM

[Abyss]

S Ruin, on 18 April 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

I got to finish the book yesterday evening and was very impressed....All in all a fantastic book.

Dodging spoilers, haven't even read the pre-released chapters, so that is all I read from your post... SO PSYCHED.

[Kalam&Quick]

as somebody who has ALSO not even read the pre-release chapters, thank you for posting this. thank you.

This has me too hyped for the book. Ive already ordered it from the UK amazon and now just waiting for it to ship from over seas

[Cedz]

S Ruin, on 18 April 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

- Oh and Draconus is really something else. His character is a pretty conflicting one. A honourable man but also extremely cruel. There is an act he performs in this book that is so cruel/heart wrenching/disgusting that it left me breathless. I had to re read the scene a few times just to make sure my eyes were not deceiving me. I am still not sure about what actually went down in that scene and look forward to discussing it with the participants of this forum. (Abyss, hetan, apt, malcalypse etc. - sharpish)

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure that part you're talking about was not actually Draconus who was at that time residing in the Chamber of Night but more his Finnest which had been corrupted by his daughters and which was what that secret room of his was protecting. You hear him comment a few times near the end of the book that he is diminished or not whole and I believe this is because a large part of his power was reborn into Korlat.

I enjoyed the book although I was a little disappointed that the big finish was almost skipped via certain literary techniques which I was surprised Erikson used seeing as he is usually so good at giving that finale in detail.

I also wonder how much of the history relating to Rake, Osserc, the sisters dawn/dusk etc will be shown seeing as we only have the one book left. Still, it was great to read some Erikson goodness again after a long wait.

[S Ruin]

Cedz, on 26 April 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

S Ruin, on 18 April 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

- Oh and Draconus is really something else. His character is a pretty conflicting one. A honourable man but also extremely cruel. There is an act he performs in this book that is so cruel/heart wrenching/disgusting that it left me breathless. I had to re read the scene a few times just to make sure my eyes were not deceiving me. I am still not sure about what actually went down in that scene and look forward to discussing it with the participants of this forum. (Abyss, hetan, apt, malcalypse etc. - sharpish)

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure that part you're talking about was not actually Draconus who was at that time residing in the Chamber of Night but more his Finnest which had been corrupted by his daughters and which was what that secret room of his was protecting. You hear him comment a few times near the end of the book that he is diminished or not whole and I believe this is because a large part of his power was reborn into Korlat.

I enjoyed the book although I was a little disappointed that the big finish was almost skipped via certain literary techniques which I was surprised Erikson used seeing as he is usually so good at giving that finale in detail.

I also wonder how much of the history relating to Rake, Osserc, the sisters dawn/dusk etc will be shown seeing as we only have the one book left. Still, it was great to read some Erikson goodness again after a long wait.

Yes I am aware it was his Finnest but I am not sure if the finnest was acting independently of Draconus or as you said it was corrupted by his daughters. I did not find any concrete proof to support the reason behind the finnest actions neither did i see any concrete evidence that the action of the finnest was corrupted by his daughters - can you point where you saw this?

[Cedz]

S Ruin, on 26 April 2016 - 05:28 PM, said:

Cedz, on 26 April 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

S Ruin, on 18 April 2016 - 07:44 AM, said:

- Oh and Draconus is really something else. His character is a pretty conflicting one. A honourable man but also extremely cruel. There is an act he performs in this book that is so cruel/heart wrenching/disgusting that it left me breathless. I had to re read the scene a few times just to make sure my eyes were not deceiving me. I am still not sure about what actually went down in that scene and look forward to discussing it with the participants of this forum. (Abyss, hetan, apt, malcalypse etc. - sharpish)

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure that part you're talking about was not actually Draconus who was at that time residing in the Chamber of Night but more his Finnest which had been corrupted by his daughters and which was what that secret room of his was protecting. You hear him comment a few times near the end of the book that he is diminished or not whole and I believe this is because a large part of his power was reborn into Korlat.

I enjoyed the book although I was a little disappointed that the big finish was almost skipped via certain literary techniques which I was surprised Erikson used seeing as he is usually so good at giving that finale in detail.

I also wonder how much of the history relating to Rake, Osserc, the sisters dawn/dusk etc will be shown seeing as we only have the one book left. Still, it was great to read some Erikson goodness again after a long wait.

Yes I am aware it was his Finnest but I am not sure if the finnest was acting independently of Draconus or as you said it was corrupted by his daughters. I did not find any concrete proof to support the reason behind the finnest actions neither did i see any concrete evidence that the action of the finnest was corrupted by his daughters - can you point where you saw this?

Spoiler

During the whole Draconus Hold segment it is mentioned by I think Olar Ethil that the entity in the secret protected room has been corrupted by the Daughters and their explorations of sorcery within the hold. In my opinion there is strong evidence that the Finnest is acting on it's own considering that Draconus himself doesn't know why he is suddenly diminished only that he tried summoning his Finnest in his fight with the D'ivers but found that it was no longer accessible because some or all of it had been reborn into Korlat. I agree however that the situation is not exactly clear and that we most likely will find out more in the final book.

It's also interesting that Orfantal and Korlat seem to be meaningful characters in the creation of this new cosmology of the Tiste, but they are mostly side characters during the main MBotF series.

I'm mainly interested in seeing how Rake, Silchas, Osserc and Bloodeye gain their draconic blood. There was a hint from the interaction between Silchas and Grizzin Farl where Silchas asked him if there was a quicker path to sorcery available and Grizzin hinted that there was (drinking blood of dragons) but that it was not a good way to go.

Lastly, did you pick up on the titbit about Telorast and Curdle where I think it was Ardata who said they possessed ancient Tiste blood and this was probably why they were obsessed with Thrones and power? My question is are they ancient Tiste who drank the blood of dragons and are now soletaken, or were they originally Elient who merged their blood with that of the ancient Tiste? Especially considering the portraits in the Citadel cellar that depict dragons over Kharkanas, it seems the Tiste have warred against the Elient before.

Oh and the Timeline is well and truly screwed after this book lol.

This post has been edited by Cedz: 26 April 2016 - 11:00 PM

[S Ruin]

Eff it - i dont know how to use this spoiler stuff on this website. If anybody expects not to see spoilers, then please leave this thread.

Anyway see my responses below:

You are probably right with regards to your theory because even though Draconus can be cruel, it just seems out of character to perform such a despicable act. I just never saw the bit where Olar Ethil said the finnest was corrupted. But if you remember from the Crippled God or one of the initial books, there was a scene that Sandalath was relieving where Rake touched her head and saw what Draconus did to her and then he said "I will avenge you" or something like that - this must have been about the Draconus or Finnest act on Sandalath.

The more crucial one is Orfantal because he was more or less ignored in the initial series.

Yes the Grizzin Farl bit where he told Ruin about a quicker way to learn sorcery is definitely hinting at the soletaken/draconic ritual. But remember the speculation is that Rake is the 1st one among that brood that becomes draconic so I wonder if he is also shown the way by Caladan Brood or maybe Ruin lets him in on the conversation he had with Grizzin Farl.

Yes i picked up on that and yes it was Ardata who said it at the vitr shore. That is a tricky one i.e. dragon then Tiste or Tiste then Dragon - I suspect it's the latter.

This post has been edited by S Ruin: 27 April 2016 - 07:37 PM

[Cedz]

S Ruin, on 27 April 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

Eff it - i dont know how to use this spoiler stuff on this website. If anybody expects not to see spoilers, then please leave this thread.

Anyway see my responses below:

You are probably right with regards to your theory because even though Draconus can be cruel, it just seems out of character to perform such a despicable act. I just never saw the bit where Olar Ethil said the finnest was corrupted. But if you remember from the Crippled God or one of the initial books, there was a scene that Sandalath was relieving where Rake touched her head and saw what Draconus did to her and then he said "I will avenge you" or something like that - this must have been about the Draconus or Finnest act on Sandalath.

The more crucial one is Orfantal because he was more or less ignored in the initial series.

Yes the Grizzin Farl bit where he told Ruin about a quicker way to learn sorcery is definitely hinting at the soletaken/draconic ritual. But remember the speculation is that Rake is the 1st one among that brood that becomes draconic so I wonder if he is also shown the way by Caladan Brood or maybe Ruin lets him in on the conversation he had with Grizzin Farl.

Yes i picked up on that and yes it was Ardata who said it at the vitr shore. That is a tricky one i.e. dragon then Tiste or Tiste then Dragon - I suspect it's the latter.

Just a heads up that the spoiler tags are "

Spoiler

" without the quotation marks.

I forgot that Rake was the first to drink draconic blood, that will be interesting to see exactly how that situation comes about.

I'm thrown regarding the fact that Skellin Droe mentioned that he has been amongst the K'Chan and that they are only just now starting to experiment with different altered breeds. I don't know how that works with the history we know regarding them being tyrants to the Jaghut and also to the war that the Tiste Andii and Edur fight against them once they travel between the realms.

Hopefully Walk in Shadow goes into this in depth in the last book.

EDIT: Ok so my attempt at explaining the spoiler tags definitely failed lol. Lets see if this works - (spoiler) (/spoiler) but replace the brackets with these []

This post has been edited by Cedz: 01 May 2016 - 10:27 PM

[Hbalih]

Loved the book. It has been said that it is a bit slow and underwhelming but it does the job for me.

Spoiler

There is more to talk about the finnest as i suspect that Draconus is already Soletaken and that was the part of his power being stored in the house. How do i come by this was the comment about Korlat having dragon blood. Had forgotten that anomander promised sandalth vengeance against draconus. The various azathanai are so interesting and so is the amount of dread the Azathanai skillen droe produces in almost all of the worlds denizens, His sacrifice fails as the hust legion in the malazan series is then said to have walked to their death in sealing of the gate? This is also suprising given that either dathenar or prazek is present for the battle of andi and liosan in malazan book series. After the grand scale of malazan it is a bit underwhelming that Hust legion stood but 3000 strong while the legion was also almost the same in number. I might be wrong but that is the impression i got. The death of the scholar was strange for me, in the end sagander was a man of no consequence. The thing that is the most strange is what happens in end, im confused as to he implications.

[Cedz]

Hbalih, on 01 May 2016 - 06:18 AM, said:

Loved the book. It has been said that it is a bit slow and underwhelming but it does the job for me.

Spoiler

There is more to talk about the finnest as i suspect that Draconus is already Soletaken and that was the part of his power being stored in the house. How do i come by this was the comment about Korlat having dragon blood. Had forgotten that anomander promised sandalth vengeance against draconus. The various azathanai are so interesting and so is the amount of dread the Azathanai skillen droe produces in almost all of the worlds denizens, His sacrifice fails as the hust legion in the malazan series is then said to have walked to their death in sealing of the gate? This is also suprising given that either dathenar or prazek is present for the battle of andi and liosan in malazan book series. After the grand scale of malazan it is a bit underwhelming that Hust legion stood but 3000 strong while the legion was also almost the same in number. I might be wrong but that is the impression i got. The death of the scholar was strange for me, in the end sagander was a man of no consequence. The thing that is the most strange is what happens in end, im confused as to he implications.

Spoiler

Just a quick comment on Korlat being able to veer into a dragon. I believe in one of the main series books it is said that she was one of the Andii group that drank the draconic blood alongside Rake and others.

I don't know if Draconus actually has draconic blood so much as he being an Azathanai that he can manipulate his physical form anyway he likes as well as his aspect being Elemental Night would explain his flying darkness form. He also uses a different darkness form in the Chamber of Night to fight off the demon earlier in the book.

[The Hust Legion]

Spoiler

Rake promised sand vengeance against draconus where was this mentioned?

[Farad]

Spoiler

- when Vastala says "Hataras, you spoke true. Our children will have bear the tilt of his eyes. Our children will carry with them the promise of a life beyond the fate of the Dog-Runners."
I thought of Kilava Onass as she escaped the Ritual of Tellann.

- is Farander Tarag related to Togg and Fanderay ( or Farand) ?

This post has been edited by Farad: 02 May 2016 - 11:12 AM

[The Hust Legion]

Farad, on 02 May 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

Spoiler

- when Vastala says "Hataras, you spoke true. Our children will have bear the tilt of his eyes. Our children will carry with them the promise of a life beyond the fate of the Dog-Runners."
I thought of Kilava Onass as she escaped the Ritual of Tellann.

- is Farander Tarag related to Togg and Fanderay ( or Farand) ?

Spoiler

hmmm didnt notice that at first, but i thought their kids might be tool and kilava.
and im pretty sure farander tarag is togg and fanderay and it was said farander tarag had taken a divers form.... i think.

[helgi]

The Hust Legion, on 02 May 2016 - 12:22 PM, said:

Farad, on 02 May 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

Spoiler

- when Vastala says "Hataras, you spoke true. Our children will have bear the tilt of his eyes. Our children will carry with them the promise of a life beyond the fate of the Dog-Runners."
I thought of Kilava Onass as she escaped the Ritual of Tellann.

- is Farander Tarag related to Togg and Fanderay ( or Farand) ?

Spoiler

hmmm didnt notice that at first, but i thought their kids might be tool and kilava.
and im pretty sure farander tarag is togg and fanderay and it was said farander tarag had taken a divers form.... i think.

Spoiler

I had the thought that Dog-Runner + Tiste = Humans as we know them from tBotF.

Also, Trell, Barghast, etc... are not actually different versions of Imass/Human/Toblakai mixtures but rather some Azathanai just created them?!

[The Hust Legion]

Spoiler

I thought the Trell were a separate race and the barghast just really watered down imass but it still seems like the barghast were a mixture as the azathanai that made them can't remember his name he was stuck on a boat. Decided he take various traits of races he'd already created and put them into his new one aka the barghast

[SaggyTeats]

A couple of things that i like (there's too many great stuff in the book), and a personal opinion :

Spoiler

1. Eriksson hints that human race in Wu is a mixture of Tiste (Listar) and Dog-Runner

2. Kagamandra Tulas said something like 'Hish Tulla isn't related to me', i sensed a veiled sarcasm here.... another case of SE being SE? I mean this could mean anything from Delath isn't related to Delat or Arathan has nothing in common to Artan.... Oh how he loves to fuck with my feeble mind.

3. Unlike FOD, thanks to Prazek and Dathenar i don't have to read another tens of thousand self deprecating words from any Tiste mouth with only a scant relief from Jaghut twisted jokes here and there. Jaghut parts of FOL are as hilarious as always.

4. Really like how each race has completely different moral qualities than the azathanai that guides them.

5. I suspect some Liosan will hide the fact of Urusander's death, proclaiming 'FL has left us due to you people behaviour, blah blah' which kinda explain why FL never came back even though MommyD do in the Malazan book.

This post has been edited by SaggyTeats: 07 May 2016 - 01:06 PM

[joshbhoy]

The scene with Haut and Korya where he says

Spoiler

"You are a mhaybe Korya, a vessel formed to contain. By this alone, death can not reach you. She grunted. "Oh, you've made me immortal, have you? When he said nothing, she slowly turned from the dead night sky above the plain. "Haut"? "hold on to your potential," he said, "for as long as you can. There's enough room inside you for a dozen lifetimes, maybe more. That's down to your resilience and and your cleverness"

Reminded me of Quick Ben with his 12 warrens

[Brooding Mason]

joshbhoy, on 09 May 2016 - 01:51 AM, said:

The scene with Haut and Korya where he says

Spoiler

"You are a mhaybe Korya, a vessel formed to contain. By this alone, death can not reach you. She grunted. "Oh, you've made me immortal, have you? When he said nothing, she slowly turned from the dead night sky above the plain. "Haut"? "hold on to your potential," he said, "for as long as you can. There's enough room inside you for a dozen lifetimes, maybe more. That's down to your resilience and and your cleverness"

Reminded me of Quick Ben with his 12 warrens

Howdy all, long time Malazan reader, first time poster and all that... So about Korya...

Spoiler

... so, anybody else think Korya is Quick Ben? My re-read of the MBOF and FOD had me suspecting a few characters in the new books, but half way through FOL it hit me that Ericsson has pulled a swifty on us by having Quick Ben (or one of Quick Ben's souls) be female not male.

Korya Delath ... Delat ... Ben Delat? Kind of hiding in plain sight, but then again there are lots of Delats/Delaths/derivations amongst the Tiste.

Then it hit me... the dolls. Korya and her dolls in Forge of Darkness. Quick and his dolls in Gardens of the Moon, Memories of Ice etc. Seen any other mages use dolls? No me neither. Korya is Quick Ben, lock it in.

Whilst I'm at it Arathan = Ruthan Gudd? Explains the little internal monologue of his TCG about Draconus and his laughter at himself for not picking up on who Quick Ben was and why he didn't recognise him. If QB is Korya and Urethan is Ruthan that scene in particular makes a whole lot more sense.

This post has been edited by Brooding Mason: 11 May 2016 - 10:10 AM

[qcp]

Brooding Mason, on 11 May 2016 - 09:58 AM, said:

joshbhoy, on 09 May 2016 - 01:51 AM, said:

The scene with Haut and Korya where he says

Spoiler

"You are a mhaybe Korya, a vessel formed to contain. By this alone, death can not reach you. She grunted. "Oh, you've made me immortal, have you? When he said nothing, she slowly turned from the dead night sky above the plain. "Haut"? "hold on to your potential," he said, "for as long as you can. There's enough room inside you for a dozen lifetimes, maybe more. That's down to your resilience and and your cleverness"

Reminded me of Quick Ben with his 12 warrens

Howdy all, long time Malazan reader, first time poster and all that... So about Korya...

Spoiler

... so, anybody else think Korya is Quick Ben? My re-read of the MBOF and FOD had me suspecting a few characters in the new books, but half way through FOL it hit me that Ericsson has pulled a swifty on us by having Quick Ben (or one of Quick Ben's souls) be female not male.

Korya Delath ... Delat ... Ben Delat? Kind of hiding in plain sight, but then again there are lots of Delats/Delaths/derivations amongst the Tiste.

Then it hit me... the dolls. Korya and her dolls in Forge of Darkness. Quick and his dolls in Gardens of the Moon, Memories of Ice etc. Seen any other mages use dolls? No me neither. Korya is Quick Ben, lock it in.

Whilst I'm at it Arathan = Ruthan Gudd? Explains the little internal monologue of his TCG about Draconus and his laughter at himself for not picking up on who Quick Ben was and why he didn't recognise him. If QB is Korya and Urethan is Ruthan that scene in particular makes a whole lot more sense.

I'm new here so I guess I'll use spoiler tags in the thread since it looks like most of the folks replying are. What's the expected etiquette for using them?

Spoiler

Yeah I agree, this book pretty much confirmed Korya being at least part of the person who we know as Quick Ben. Haut creating the finnest to trap the old river god and it being an acorn, and her begin called a mahybe and the 12 lifetimes conversation posted above all scream Quick Ben. Ben used acorns extensively in his magic and carries 12 souls in himself.

[TheMostHonourableBloke]

I really enjoyed the book, though it didn't reach my frankly insane expectations (this is the first Erikson book I've actually had to wait for). I would rate this book below every other Erikson novel including FOD. Still a great read mind, and better than most fantasy out there.