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I Just Finished MoI and I Have Questions

#1 User is offline   Aventinus 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 12:45 AM

Greetings!

Long time no see, guys. Last time we talked was when I finished DG. Well, I just finished MoI and I have questions. I'm not going to describe you my feelings for the book. You know them already. You know that MoI is one of the best of the series, you know what I've felt, especially towards the end etc. It was awesome. :)

So, let's start, but first I have some questions regarding DG, now that I've read MoI:

DG:

1. Which Warren was the one that Silanda was found? And why wasn't it poisoned by CG yet?


2. The crazy mage who resulted in Kulp, Gesler and the others to enter this strange warren and find Silanda, was he driven crazy due to CG's poison?


3. Why did the T'lan Imass tell Kulp and the others aboard the Silanda that they serve the Chained One? Did they mean that one of them was serving him? That all of them were serving him unwittingly?


4. I try to remember if there were mentions of poisoned warrens during DG. If I remember correctly almost everyone used warrens up until the end without any problems. Am I correct?


5. So, the Imperial Warren is not poisoned. Right? Because everyone used it effortlessly up until the end.

MoI:

6. It's being said by a very powerful character (I don't remember who said it) that the creator of the Deck of Dragons is long dead. Who created the Deck of Dragons? The Malazan Wikia doesn't address this fact (Yes, I checked the wikia, shame on me)

7. Now for the important part: The discussion between Dujek and Wiskeyjack where Dujek "explaines" to WJ and the readers what happened in Pale. There has been a lot of discussion in Tor for that particular chapter. Some claimed that it wasn't very Erikson-like to feed us this amount of info (indeed it wasn't) and that SE was "forced" to include it because he had a change of heart regarding the whole series. Others say that Dujek is lying to WJ to keep him in the army. Some others say that Laseen was the one who lied to Dujek to convince him to stay. What do you guys think? Was that part a lie? Laseen's lie? Dujek's lie? No lie at all? Did SE had a change of heart?

8. And the MOST important imo: In this very lie (or not) Dujek told WJ that Tayschrenn was "grooming" Tattersail to become the Master (Mistress) of the Deck. Ok. That doesn't sound right to me. The deck works like the Azath. It's nature's way of protecting itself. How could Tayschrenn groom anyone for this position? How is Tayschrenn qualified to do something like this? Something is fishy.

9. Also in this lie, Dujek claims that Laseen didn't use the Throne to order the slaughter of Aren. Yet, we have Dancer's word in DG (through Apsalar) that Kellanved did not order the slaughter. Who is correct? From one point, only Kellanved could have used the Throne. On the other hand, Dancer is extremely smart and I don't think that it's possible for Kellanved to lie to Dancer. What do you guys think?






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#2 User is online   worry 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 01:50 AM

I sometimes get confused on the effects of the Chained God's poisoning of the Warrens and his ill effect (more generally) on Burn. But I'm pretty sure the poisoning works geographically, like its epicenter is around Pannion and spreads from there. And it's just not widespread enough to affect 7 Cities. Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that answers several of your questions.

The crazy mage though is because he's an escapee of the Otataral mines.
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#3 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 03:16 AM

View PostOponn Relationship, on 03 April 2016 - 01:50 AM, said:

I sometimes get confused on the effects of the Chained God's poisoning of the Warrens and his ill effect (more generally) on Burn. But I'm pretty sure the poisoning works geographically, like its epicenter is around Pannion and spreads from there. And it's just not widespread enough to affect 7 Cities. Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that answers several of your questions.

The crazy mage though is because he's an escapee of the Otataral mines.


Both of these answers are correct.

1. "The Nascent." RAFO more.

2. We'll need the actual quote. The Crippled God is basically absent until Book 3.

6. Nobody. "Talents" often create their own decks. Every deck isn't the same.

7. Fog of war is a bitch, ain't it? That's the point.

8. How is Tattersail/Silverfox able to DECIDE this by painting a card? Because the Deck is a living thing that adapts and not always evenly among practitioners.

9. The Imass aren't exactly the slaves they "seem" to be. They have higher priorities at times. Also... politics.
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#4 User is offline   Andorion 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 04:08 AM

View PostAventinus, on 03 April 2016 - 12:45 AM, said:

Greetings!

Long time no see, guys. Last time we talked was when I finished DG. Well, I just finished MoI and I have questions. I'm not going to describe you my feelings for the book. You know them already. You know that MoI is one of the best of the series, you know what I've felt, especially towards the end etc. It was awesome. ;)

So, let's start, but first I have some questions regarding DG, now that I've read MoI:

DG:

1. Which Warren was the one that Silanda was found? And why wasn't it poisoned by CG yet?


2. The crazy mage who resulted in Kulp, Gesler and the others to enter this strange warren and find Silanda, was he driven crazy due to CG's poison?


3. Why did the T'lan Imass tell Kulp and the others aboard the Silanda that they serve the Chained One? Did they mean that one of them was serving him? That all of them were serving him unwittingly?


4. I try to remember if there were mentions of poisoned warrens during DG. If I remember correctly almost everyone used warrens up until the end without any problems. Am I correct?


5. So, the Imperial Warren is not poisoned. Right? Because everyone used it effortlessly up until the end.

MoI:

6. It's being said by a very powerful character (I don't remember who said it) that the creator of the Deck of Dragons is long dead. Who created the Deck of Dragons? The Malazan Wikia doesn't address this fact (Yes, I checked the wikia, shame on me)

7. Now for the important part: The discussion between Dujek and Wiskeyjack where Dujek "explaines" to WJ and the readers what happened in Pale. There has been a lot of discussion in Tor for that particular chapter. Some claimed that it wasn't very Erikson-like to feed us this amount of info (indeed it wasn't) and that SE was "forced" to include it because he had a change of heart regarding the whole series. Others say that Dujek is lying to WJ to keep him in the army. Some others say that Laseen was the one who lied to Dujek to convince him to stay. What do you guys think? Was that part a lie? Laseen's lie? Dujek's lie? No lie at all? Did SE had a change of heart?

8. And the MOST important imo: In this very lie (or not) Dujek told WJ that Tayschrenn was "grooming" Tattersail to become the Master (Mistress) of the Deck. Ok. That doesn't sound right to me. The deck works like the Azath. It's nature's way of protecting itself. How could Tayschrenn groom anyone for this position? How is Tayschrenn qualified to do something like this? Something is fishy.

9. Also in this lie, Dujek claims that Laseen didn't use the Throne to order the slaughter of Aren. Yet, we have Dancer's word in DG (through Apsalar) that Kellanved did not order the slaughter. Who is correct? From one point, only Kellanved could have used the Throne. On the other hand, Dancer is extremely smart and I don't think that it's possible for Kellanved to lie to Dancer. What do you guys think?








3. Definite RAFO
4&5. Poisonong had a more localised effect
7. Pale was a huge, huge fuck up. Tayschrenn released demons to take out Nightchill as he believed that she did not have the Empire's interests at heart. Unfortunately this being the middle of a showdown with Rake, magic was thrown around and killed others as well. The BBs were underground to protect them, nobody saw the cave in coming. The logic of Dujek's "defection" was to enable to get allies powerful enough to take on the Pannion seer.

Remember, Laseen is not infallible. Her plans have holes, and the execution of the plans can flop
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#5 User is offline   Aventinus 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 09:02 AM

Thanks for the answers, guys. Yet, I'd like to hear more about some stuff. In particular, I'd like your opinion on how is Tayscrenn qualified to to do this "grooming" and I'd like to hear from you if you think that this talk Dujek had with WJ was a lie, and if yes, whose lie.

View PostOponn Relationship, on 03 April 2016 - 01:50 AM, said:

The crazy mage though is because he's an escapee of the Otataral mines.

Oh, yeah! This makes more sense :p

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 03 April 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

Both of these answers are correct.

1. "The Nascent." RAFO more.

2. We'll need the actual quote. The Crippled God is basically absent until Book 3.

6. Nobody. "Talents" often create their own decks. Every deck isn't the same.

7. Fog of war is a bitch, ain't it? That's the point.

8. How is Tattersail/Silverfox able to DECIDE this by painting a card? Because the Deck is a living thing that adapts and not always evenly among practitioners.

9. The Imass aren't exactly the slaves they "seem" to be. They have higher priorities at times. Also... politics.

1. Ooooh, shieeet, I can't wait! I love Warren lore.
2. There is no quote, @OponnRelationship answered my question.
6. And YET, this character (I think it as CG or Rake) said that the creator is long dead. Will we ever get an answer to that?
8. I don't know what you're talking about. Silverfox didn't paint any cards.

View PostAndorion, on 03 April 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

3. Definite RAFO
4&5. Poisonong had a more localised effect
7. Pale was a huge, huge fuck up. Tayschrenn released demons to take out Nightchill as he believed that she did not have the Empire's interests at heart. Unfortunately this being the middle of a showdown with Rake, magic was thrown around and killed others as well. The BBs were underground to protect them, nobody saw the cave in coming. The logic of Dujek's "defection" was to enable to get allies powerful enough to take on the Pannion seer.

Remember, Laseen is not infallible. Her plans have holes, and the execution of the plans can flop


3. Ok, for that one I can't wait! It has been bugging since I first read it. I hope I will learn soon.

I know that Laseen is not infallible. And I'm actually torn about her.


"Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death."
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#6 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 09:26 AM

View PostAventinus, on 03 April 2016 - 12:45 AM, said:

Greetings!

Long time no see, guys. Last time we talked was when I finished DG. Well, I just finished MoI and I have questions. I'm not going to describe you my feelings for the book. You know them already. You know that MoI is one of the best of the series, you know what I've felt, especially towards the end etc. It was awesome. ;)

So, let's start, but first I have some questions regarding DG, now that I've read MoI:

DG:

1. Which Warren was the one that Silanda was found? And why wasn't it poisoned by CG yet?


2. The crazy mage who resulted in Kulp, Gesler and the others to enter this strange warren and find Silanda, was he driven crazy due to CG's poison?


3. Why did the T'lan Imass tell Kulp and the others aboard the Silanda that they serve the Chained One? Did they mean that one of them was serving him? That all of them were serving him unwittingly?


4. I try to remember if there were mentions of poisoned warrens during DG. If I remember correctly almost everyone used warrens up until the end without any problems. Am I correct?


5. So, the Imperial Warren is not poisoned. Right? Because everyone used it effortlessly up until the end.

MoI:

6. It's being said by a very powerful character (I don't remember who said it) that the creator of the Deck of Dragons is long dead. Who created the Deck of Dragons? The Malazan Wikia doesn't address this fact (Yes, I checked the wikia, shame on me)

7. Now for the important part: The discussion between Dujek and Wiskeyjack where Dujek "explaines" to WJ and the readers what happened in Pale. There has been a lot of discussion in Tor for that particular chapter. Some claimed that it wasn't very Erikson-like to feed us this amount of info (indeed it wasn't) and that SE was "forced" to include it because he had a change of heart regarding the whole series. Others say that Dujek is lying to WJ to keep him in the army. Some others say that Laseen was the one who lied to Dujek to convince him to stay. What do you guys think? Was that part a lie? Laseen's lie? Dujek's lie? No lie at all? Did SE had a change of heart?

8. And the MOST important imo: In this very lie (or not) Dujek told WJ that Tayschrenn was "grooming" Tattersail to become the Master (Mistress) of the Deck. Ok. That doesn't sound right to me. The deck works like the Azath. It's nature's way of protecting itself. How could Tayschrenn groom anyone for this position? How is Tayschrenn qualified to do something like this? Something is fishy.

9. Also in this lie, Dujek claims that Laseen didn't use the Throne to order the slaughter of Aren. Yet, we have Dancer's word in DG (through Apsalar) that Kellanved did not order the slaughter. Who is correct? From one point, only Kellanved could have used the Throne. On the other hand, Dancer is extremely smart and I don't think that it's possible for Kellanved to lie to Dancer. What do you guys think?

1. The Nascent.

2. Not to my knowledge. He was either an escapee from the mines or lost control of the sorcery he was using.

3. RAFO

4. Yes, but Seven Cities is half a world away from Genabackis

5. Indeed.



6. Who knows?

7. You don't really get to know.

8. Again, it comes down to whether you believe Tays. Also the Deck is a very mysterious thing.

9. We don't really know. The Imass also aren't automatons.
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#7 User is offline   Aventinus 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 12:02 PM

View PostKanese S, on 03 April 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

The Imass also aren't automatons.


Hmmm...

This post has been edited by Aventinus: 03 April 2016 - 12:02 PM

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#8 User is offline   HoosierDaddy 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 03:29 PM

View PostAventinus, on 03 April 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

Thanks for the answers, guys. Yet, I'd like to hear more about some stuff. In particular, I'd like your opinion on how is Tayscrenn qualified to to do this "grooming" and I'd like to hear from you if you think that this talk Dujek had with WJ was a lie, and if yes, whose lie.

View PostOponn Relationship, on 03 April 2016 - 01:50 AM, said:

The crazy mage though is because he's an escapee of the Otataral mines.

Oh, yeah! This makes more sense ;)

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 03 April 2016 - 03:16 AM, said:

Both of these answers are correct.

1. "The Nascent." RAFO more.

2. We'll need the actual quote. The Crippled God is basically absent until Book 3.

6. Nobody. "Talents" often create their own decks. Every deck isn't the same.

7. Fog of war is a bitch, ain't it? That's the point.

8. How is Tattersail/Silverfox able to DECIDE this by painting a card? Because the Deck is a living thing that adapts and not always evenly among practitioners.

9. The Imass aren't exactly the slaves they "seem" to be. They have higher priorities at times. Also... politics.

1. Ooooh, shieeet, I can't wait! I love Warren lore.
2. There is no quote, @OponnRelationship answered my question.
6. And YET, this character (I think it as CG or Rake) said that the creator is long dead. Will we ever get an answer to that?
8. I don't know what you're talking about. Silverfox didn't paint any cards.

View PostAndorion, on 03 April 2016 - 04:08 AM, said:

3. Definite RAFO
4&5. Poisonong had a more localised effect
7. Pale was a huge, huge fuck up. Tayschrenn released demons to take out Nightchill as he believed that she did not have the Empire's interests at heart. Unfortunately this being the middle of a showdown with Rake, magic was thrown around and killed others as well. The BBs were underground to protect them, nobody saw the cave in coming. The logic of Dujek's "defection" was to enable to get allies powerful enough to take on the Pannion seer.

Remember, Laseen is not infallible. Her plans have holes, and the execution of the plans can flop


3. Ok, for that one I can't wait! It has been bugging since I first read it. I hope I will learn soon.

I know that Laseen is not infallible. And I'm actually torn about her.




The BB's table had Ganoes painted on it by Silverfox. The Wanderer in the Sword.
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#9 User is offline   Aventinus 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 03:37 PM

View PostHoosierDaddy, on 03 April 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

The BB's table had Ganoes painted on it by Silverfox. The Wanderer in the Sword.


Wow, wait. You mean that the card that was drawn on the table in the start of MoI, which made Paran the Master of the Deck, was actually drawn by Silverfox? Is this something I missed? Cause I don't remember any references of Silverfox doing it. Is this answered in the following books?

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#10 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 07:38 PM

Can't remember if it was actually Silverfox herself who drew it, but she tells Paran that A new card has arrived in the deck, unaligned, and that she believes that it is Paran, the master of the deck.
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#11 User is offline   Aventinus 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 07:55 PM

View PostGorefest, on 03 April 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

Can't remember if it was actually Silverfox herself who drew it, but she tells Paran that A new card has arrived in the deck, unaligned, and that she believes that it is Paran, the master of the deck.


This doesn't prove anything though. As an Elder God, Silverox can feel the Deck's movements/players etc.

"Show me a god that does not demand mortal suffering. Show me a god that celebrates diversity, a celebration that embraces even non-believers, and is not threatened by them. Show me a god that understands the meaning of peace. In life, not in death."
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#12 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 03 April 2016 - 10:59 PM

Proves what, exactly?
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#13 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 10:42 AM

View PostAventinus, on 03 April 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

View PostKanese S, on 03 April 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

The Imass also aren't automatons.


Hmmm...



Can't really go further into it without spoilers.
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#14 User is offline   Aventinus 

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 10:52 AM

View PostKanese S, on 04 April 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

View PostAventinus, on 03 April 2016 - 12:02 PM, said:

View PostKanese S, on 03 April 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

The Imass also aren't automatons.

Hmmm...

Can't really go further into it without spoilers.


Of course you can't! I didn't asked you to. It just hit me that I've never thought of this that way. Of course they're not automatons. More food for thought. :)


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#15 User is offline   WinterPhoenix 

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Posted 10 April 2016 - 01:27 PM

The Crippled God's poisoning of the warrens and his poisoning of Burn are indeed confusing, DG seems to suggest that the CG's end game is the death of Burn in some manner to free him from his chains (he was 'chained to the earth' in the last chaining) this always suggested to me colossal worldwide effects. The suggestion always seemed to me that Burns fever and the poisoned warrens are linked in cause, but in effect one is worldwide and the other seems to be localised geographically to that area of South Central Genabackis, emanating from the centre of the Pannion Seer's chaotic power. The Trygalle Trade Guild have trouble getting to Fidler and co at Tremorlor near the end of DG, but this seems to be explained more by the location they were attempting to get to, and not because the poisoning was still causing them massive issues as it did earlier in the timeline in MoI. Of course, K'rul, who's blood made the warrens (or so he claims to Envy outside Callows) is also in close proximity on Genabackis, so that might have something to do with it.

There is actually another reason why the warren the Silandah was in (before the epic dragon ride :p) wouldn't be poisoned yet, even outside of the fact that 7 Cities is half the world away, but this is RAFO and will illuminate question 3 for you as well.

I actually still wonder about the CG's statement concerning the creator of the Deck of Dragons as well, I am currently reading RotCG, and frankly I still can't remember any other character making such a claim, that is I don't think the Deck has a creator in the strictest sense of that word. If this is the case then you have to wonder about the CG's claims. Certainly lying seems to entirely in character for him, but if I remember correctly when he makes this claim, it is to someone who would know instantly that it is simply not true (if that is indeed the case.) There are characters that you have been introduced to, and others still to come that you could theorise about as a creator, in particular K'rul, who after all has just come back into the world in a meaningful way back in GotM, in that manner it's feasible to assume many ascendants/gods do not yet know of his resurrection - feasible, but frankly unlikely I feel.

Questions 7 and 8 and to some extent 9 as well, seem to be left open for you to come to your own decisions based on your own opinions of the characters involved. Do you trust Tayschrenn? Do you believe he has the power to influence to deck to point of grooming a new 'Master'? What kind of power would this even incur? Do you trust Laseen? Bearing in mind we've never had a PoV at this point, and this seems a purposeful omission. Would Kellanved lie to Dancer? Could Kellanved lie to Dancer? Is Dancer trustworthy? So many questions of intention that the reader is invited to supply their own answers to really.
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#16 User is offline   marilynmoss 

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 06:50 AM

Interesting questions and lovely and conctrete answers B) Thanx a lot :(
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