[Nikolas Niall]

I picked up Gardens of the Moon second hand in a Garden Centre of all places. I havn't gotten around to reading it, but have been reading reviews, wikis and other sources etc to decide if this 10+ book world was worth investing my time in. I've always loved secondary worlds but other than Arda and The Known World of A Song of Ice and Fire, they all bore me. Malazan is the only non mainstream fantasy world that the author of which seems to love like a child. But, its so BIG AND LONG.

So a FEW questions.
1: Is it really that hard to follow for the first 3-4 books?
2: does it really focus so much on the world, magic and story, that the characters suffer?
3: is there time travel? (Instantly ruins it for me)
4: does anyone suggest keeping notes while reading it?

[Andorion]

Nikolas Niall, on 30 March 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

I picked up Gardens of the Moon second hand in a Garden Centre of all places. I havn't gotten around to reading it, but have been reading reviews, wikis and other sources etc to decide if this 10+ book world was worth investing my time in. I've always loved secondary worlds but other than Arda and The Known World of A Song of Ice and Fire, they all bore me. Malazan is the only non mainstream fantasy world that the author of which seems to love like a child. But, its so BIG AND LONG.

So a FEW questions.
1: Is it really that hard to follow for the first 3-4 books?
2: does it really focus so much on the world, magic and story, that the characters suffer?
3: is there time travel? (Instantly ruins it for me)
4: does anyone suggest keeping notes while reading it?

First and most important thing: Gardens of the Moon is different in many ways from the rest of the books. It was written many years before the others, so there maybe some discrepancies.

1. It is not really hard to get into as opposed to being an unconventional series with unconventional books. The author will throw you into the midst of events already happening without much explanation. Don't expect to understand everything immediately, ask questions here or RAFO
2. There is a huge amount of focus on the world but Erikson writes amazing characters who often reduce readers to tears
3. No, nothing I can think of
4. Depends upon your reading process. I prefer a full speed first read with a slower second read. Erikson explicitly says the series is designed for rereads.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Andorion, on 30 March 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Nikolas Niall, on 30 March 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

I picked up Gardens of the Moon second hand in a Garden Centre of all places. I havn't gotten around to reading it, but have been reading reviews, wikis and other sources etc to decide if this 10+ book world was worth investing my time in. I've always loved secondary worlds but other than Arda and The Known World of A Song of Ice and Fire, they all bore me. Malazan is the only non mainstream fantasy world that the author of which seems to love like a child. But, its so BIG AND LONG.

So a FEW questions.
1: Is it really that hard to follow for the first 3-4 books?
2: does it really focus so much on the world, magic and story, that the characters suffer?
3: is there time travel? (Instantly ruins it for me)
4: does anyone suggest keeping notes while reading it?

First and most important thing: Gardens of the Moon is different in many ways from the rest of the books. It was written many years before the others, so there maybe some discrepancies.

1. It is not really hard to get into as opposed to being an unconventional series with unconventional books. The author will throw you into the midst of events already happening without much explanation. Don't expect to understand everything immediately, ask questions here or RAFO
2. There is a huge amount of focus on the world but Erikson writes amazing characters who often reduce readers to tears
3. No, nothing I can think of
4. Depends upon your reading process. I prefer a full speed first read with a slower second read. Erikson explicitly says the series is designed for rereads.

In regards to GotM being written years before the subsequent books — many people find the writing to not be that great in GotM, but that it greatly improves in the second book.

[Gorefest]

Nikolas Niall, on 30 March 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

1: Is it really that hard to follow for the first 3-4 books?

Not really. The first book is generally considered to be the most confusing, as you sort of get thrown into the Malazan universe with the assumption that you are part of the action, and nobody is going to halt their activities to sit down with you and talk through the past X years that led up to the events that you find the characters caught up in.

All you need to know to follow the story is handed to you in a natural way, not spoon-fed, and anything that looks confusing will be elaborated on in due time. So as long as you are willing to go with the flow and accept that certain concepts (like the internal workings of the magic system, the various races, etc) are not readily explained in detail, you will be fine. The second book already has a much more streamlined feel to it and after that the only way is up. If you aren't hooked by the end of the third book, this series may not be for you, but at least it means you won't have to plod through another 7 books (plus other Malazan novels such as the Esslemont books, the novellas, the prequels and the sequels).

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2: does it really focus so much on the world, magic and story, that the characters suffer?

Not at all. Everything is primarily about the characters. They are at the very heart of the Malazan Book of the Fallen. The magic, world, etc is discussed mostly with the purpose to make character actions and choices understandable, not the other way around. They serve the plot, they do not make it.

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3: is there time travel? (Instantly ruins it for me)

Nope. Events in the books span many millennia, though. And there are the odd flashbacks or occasional dream visits to past events. But no actual jumping through time and affecting things in other time lines stuff.

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4: does anyone suggest keeping notes while reading it?

I wouldn't bother. If at the end of a book you are confused or you need a refresher of characters or events from previous books, there is always the Malazan Wikipedia or the TOR reread. Or just ask things here.

Give it a try. That's usually how these things work. If you don't get it by the end of book 2 or 3, it probably isn't your cup of tea.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 30 March 2016 - 03:26 PM

[Abyss]

Nikolas Niall, on 30 March 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

I picked up Gardens of the Moon...decide if this 10+ book world was worth investing my time in....so BIG AND LONG.

Start reading. You`ll make your own mind up, but odds are you are going to love this series.

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1: Is it really that hard to follow for the first 3-4 books?

Depends. Do you need everything nicely spelled out for you via an ignorant farmboy protagonist who gets everything spelled out for him via a kindly wizard mentor?

Then you're fucked. Don't waste your time with this series.

But you like Song of Ice and Fire, so maybe you're not that fantasy lit fan... maybe you're a fan who can be dropped into the middle of a story that's been going on for thousands of years, have ideas and concepts thrown at you with no explanation, no clear good and bad guys, monsters and gods passing in and out of the story with no information other than their existence, and love it for the sheer WTFF??? and the satisfaction of figuring it all out.

Note: the first 200 or so pages of Gardens is going to throw you. Just roll with it.

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2: does it really focus so much on the world, magic and story, that the characters suffer?

Subjectively, no.

But to be clear, the world, magic and story are all very important to the book and will NOT be explained to you easily.

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3: is there time travel? (Instantly ruins it for me)

No.

But time does get fucked with.

Also gravity, the fundamental elements, religion and belief, power, godhood, mortality, genetics, society, mules....

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4: does anyone suggest keeping notes while reading it?

Some people do.

Seems too much like work to me... you may have more fun posting a reading thread in the appropriate subforum where you post your thoughts, comments, questions... malazfans can answer you without spoiling.

[Nevyn]

Nikolas Niall, on 30 March 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

I picked up Gardens of the Moon second hand in a Garden Centre of all places. I havn't gotten around to reading it, but have been reading reviews, wikis and other sources etc to decide if this 10+ book world was worth investing my time in. I've always loved secondary worlds but other than Arda and The Known World of A Song of Ice and Fire, they all bore me. Malazan is the only non mainstream fantasy world that the author of which seems to love like a child. But, its so BIG AND LONG.

So a FEW questions.
1: Is it really that hard to follow for the first 3-4 books?
2: does it really focus so much on the world, magic and story, that the characters suffer?
3: is there time travel? (Instantly ruins it for me)
4: does anyone suggest keeping notes while reading it?

1) Yes. You are put smack dab into the action and you learn the background over time by seeing the points of view of various characters. There are very few info dumps.

2) Almost the opposite. There are a lot of characters, but they are front and centre, and you learn about the rest through them.

3) No

4).Just take your time reading it, be aware that some things you don't get you are not meant to get, and see how you like it. If you think you missed something, ask us

[Salt-Man Z]

The difficulty of getting into GotM is vastly overrated. Yes, a number of folks have indeed bounced right off the first book, but I'm going to guess that just as many (if not more) have, like myself, found it not to be much of a challenge. Just go in with an open mind, realizing that you're going be thrown right into the thick of things--with no big expository infodumps--and it's okay that you don't know everything. (So you don't know what a Warren is, big deal. It has something to do with magic, maybe? That's good enough for now, you can assume you'll learn more later.) Trust the author to give you what you need to know right now, and the rest will follow in time.

As for the characters, one of the big complaints of the series (from people that don't like it) is that the characters are shallow. That's not so. They're rich and detailed, just not in the same way as, say, ASoIaF. In GRRM's series, you might spend a quarter of a novel inside a character's head, getting to know their thoughts, motivations, backstory, etc. In Malazan, you might have a dozen (or two dozen!) POV characters in a book; the depth is still there, but just as much of it is drawn from the interactions between characters and their reaction to events as it is from the brief glimpses of inner monologue. Such a large number of characters necessarily means they won't all be as well-drawn, but if you took a poll on the best Malazan characters, you'd probably get a good two dozen nominations at a minimum.

This post has been edited by Salt-Man Z: 30 March 2016 - 04:26 PM

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Salt-Man Z, on 30 March 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

As for the characters, one of the big complaints of the series (from people that don't like it) is that the characters are shallow. That's not so. They're rich and detailed, just not in the same way as, say, ASoIaF. In GRRM's series, you might spend a quarter of a novel inside a character's head, getting to know their thoughts, motivations, backstory, etc. In Malazan, you might have a dozen (or two dozen!) POV characters in a book; the depth is still there, but just as much of it is drawn from the interactions between characters and their reaction to events as it is from the brief glimpses of inner monologue. Such a large number of characters necessarily means they won't all be as well-drawn, but if you took a poll on the best Malazan characters, you'd probably get a good two dozen nominations at a minimum.

Great point! You get to know most of the characters - and the most about the characters - through their interactions with others. Not, as in many stories, through being subjected solely to their internal thoughts, opinions, rationalizations, etc.

This post has been edited by Whisperzzzzzzz: 30 March 2016 - 06:56 PM

[Abyss]

Whisperzzzzzzz, on 30 March 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 30 March 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

As for the characters, one of the big complaints of the series (from people that don't like it) is that the characters are shallow. That's not so. They're rich and detailed, just not in the same way as, say, ASoIaF. In GRRM's series, you might spend a quarter of a novel inside a character's head, getting to know their thoughts, motivations, backstory, etc. In Malazan, you might have a dozen (or two dozen!) POV characters in a book; the depth is still there, but just as much of it is drawn from the interactions between characters and their reaction to events as it is from the brief glimpses of inner monologue. Such a large number of characters necessarily means they won't all be as well-drawn, but if you took a poll on the best Malazan characters, you'd probably get a good two dozen nominations at a minimum.

Great point! You get to know most of the characters - and the most about the characters - through their interactions with others. Not, as in many stories, through being subjected solely to their internal thoughts, opinions, rationalizations, etc.

True. Some of the most memorable characters are ones you only see thru others' perspectives.




Bottom line... this is brilliant, complicated, challenging fantasy lit. The author(s) respect(s) the readers enough not to spoon-feed them. It's not for everyone, but give it a chance and it will blow your thinkymeatz like few other works out there.

[worry]

Uhhhhhhh, guys, there's definitely time travel. It's just that, like so much of the series's content, it (and the primary character who does it) tends to serve theme much more than plot. That said, it's minimal in terms of page-count and focus, like easily a fraction of 1% of the book(s) where it occurs.

[Grief]

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about the time stuff. Technically it does exist, but as Worry says it's really minimal and it's far from the cheap plot resolving cop-out that it can be in other books. I think the fact that almost everyone posting forgot it existed at all says enough really.

[Abyss]

It's not time travel in the SF sense that I think the OP means. Hence my comment that time gets fucked with.

[worry]

I would say it's the fantasy equivalent of that concept, pretty much -- just no sci-fi tech/machinery.

Spoiler

Okay good point, Aby dahling.

This post has been edited by Oponn Relationship: 31 March 2016 - 08:10 AM
Reason for edit: It's the OP's thread. Let's not spoil.

[James Hutton]

Grief, on 31 March 2016 - 02:10 AM, said:

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about the time stuff. Technically it does exist, but as Worry says ...

Apparently, his name's Oponn Relationship now instead of Worry. I guess that's what you get when you can't simply state your relationship status on your profile.

[Garak]

Wait, which bit are you referring too? I don't recall it.

[worry]

If you're talking to me, this ain't the thread to discuss details in, but I'll PM you if you want.

[Gorefest]

Oponn Relationship, on 30 March 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

Uhhhhhhh, guys, there's definitely time travel. It's just that, like so much of the series's content, it (and the primary character who does it) tends to serve theme much more than plot. That said, it's minimal in terms of page-count and focus, like easily a fraction of 1% of the book(s) where it occurs.

I took time travel in the sense of: character(s) jumping back and forth in time, in the process unwittingly or deliberately changing events that impact the overall story arc. So disregarding things like observing (and sort of interacting in) past events (similar to Bran's weirwood visions in SOIAF) and such. But technically speaking I guess you can say that it occurs, however it is not central or highly impacting on the overall plot.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 31 March 2016 - 10:43 AM

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

All the characters do travel forwards in time at a constant pace, so there is that.

[Gorefest]

Some even more constant that others.

[worry]

As Abyss says, this isn't the place to get into it. And you can take it however you want, but the OP question is "is there time travel?" and the simple, truthful answer is yes there is.

(I don't mean to sound terse, but I agree with Abyss -- the less said the better beyond direct answers to OP).