[Felisin Fatter]

On my reread, this is one point that keeps bugging and distracting me. The tiste can and do live for centuries. Yet they grow up even faster than humans, marry and have kids as teenagers. Many seem burned out by thirty and alle the parents we see are described as old people.

1 - Orfantal is 5 or 6, but acts like twice that (but maybe he's super-precocious??). All the other children we see also act as if they're years older. Like naive adults, mostly. They are all physically strong too. This could be a tiste thing, and in some cases we could blame 'magic' (azathanai). So, whatever, I can mostly suspend disbelief on this point.


2 - Someone says 'women don't usually bother to have kids after their first century'. And the women we see who are about to marry are teenagers or early twenties. Judging by Feren and Sandalath, birth-control is not wide-spread either... so how does this work? How do the women 'choose' not to have babies? And if they can do that, why are they having them so young? Especially since women can also die in childbirth, like Enesdias mom.


3 - More disturbing: Where are all the (great-great-etc-)grandparents?? If you have kids in your twenties and you live for 500 years, there should be a whole lot of generations alive at the same time. Yet we never see more than (adult) children + parent. Oh, except Sand's mom, she's a grandmother. But she can't be much older than 50 herself. Where is everyone else?? All the families we see seem to have only 1-4 members and nobody mentions losing 50-100 family members in the war or anything like that. Just a mother or a father, only a few and never more than one generation removed.


4 - Why are all the parents described as old people? When they must be around 50 or 60 - about 10% of their natural life-span? Makes Tiste existence seem a horror. You age faster than a human, get married youg, have one or two kids. By the time these are adults (soon) you look and feel like an old person, in all the negative ways. And you have 5 centuries still ahead of you, feeling like that! Yay!
Or aren't tiste usually like that, and is it all the 'broken by the wars' effects we see here? But that brings me back to point 3 and I'm still baffled.


Anyone??


Crazy theory: Tiste start aging once they reproduce, and have a human lifespan after that. Disproved by Enesdias father when he muses how much it sucks that he has centuries of life ahead (in fact it turns out to be minutes...). Also, nobody would have kids in their first century of life.

[Esa1996]

Felisin Fatter, on 08 August 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

On my reread, this is one point that keeps bugging and distracting me. The tiste can and do live for centuries. Yet they grow up even faster than humans, marry and have kids as teenagers. Many seem burned out by thirty and alle the parents we see are described as old people.

Could be a mistake by SE. In GotM it's said that Anomander Rake is around 20 000 years old, whereas later it's said he' around 300 000 years old. Also, I always got the impression that Tiste live pretty much forever.

[Tiste Simeon]

Well I'm 30 with no kids. Not sure if that helps or what.

[worry]

All the old people went to deforest the land, but the trees they cut down fell on them. Cuz they're old.

[Felisin Fatter]

Esa1996, on 08 August 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

Felisin Fatter, on 08 August 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

On my reread, this is one point that keeps bugging and distracting me. The tiste can and do live for centuries. Yet they grow up even faster than humans, marry and have kids as teenagers. Many seem burned out by thirty and alle the parents we see are described as old people.

Could be a mistake by SE. In GotM it's said that Anomander Rake is around 20 000 years old, whereas later it's said he' around 300 000 years old. Also, I always got the impression that Tiste live pretty much forever.

Nah, Anomander's age is 300k, that's either a GoTM'ism or a historian quoting that number

My impression from FoD is that Tiste can live 600- 1000 years, though usually less. There is disease, war, dying in childbed, etc. I just read a passage where an 'elderly grandmother' (see!) dies, probably of fright because of the flooding of Kharkanas. This is considered sad but not super-weird.
On the other hand, Draconus' adopted mother was 500 and 'died suddenly' (btw I really really hope to learn more about her one day...).

The tiste that live forever are just those with Anomander I think, and they are all powerful mages and/or have dragon blood. Or it is Anomanders influence, or some weird blessing/curse from MD... yes, maybe tiste andii do live forever. Hmm. This one might actually be answered by the end of this trilogy.

Another strange thing: Ivis is a youg guy (30-40?) but he once suffered from starvation and now looks old (i.e. wrinkled, which is apparantly a really weird look for a tiste... to add to my confusion...). So maybe it's something in the food they eat that keeps them young? Or maybe tiste only age as a result of stress and all the wars killed off everyone over a century as a result?? But you'd think there'd be more mourning and mass graves if that were the case.

This post has been edited by Felisin Fatter: 09 August 2015 - 03:36 PM

[nacht]

Ultimately, this age inconsistency is something we have to accept for now. Even if it remains so after the whole series is put to rest, it would only be a very minor blemish.

If you are looking for any plausible explanation.

The long life (immortality) might be something that they obtained later. For example, in Indian mythology, there is the concept of "amrit" that was imbibed to make the "devas" (i.e. celestail beings) immortal.
Another explanation is that the Tiste were somehow re-positioned in a different frame of reference where time moves faster (i.e. events happen more quickly). i dont claim to understand this paper, but you might have fun reading it.

Time, Clocks, and the Ordering of Events in a Distributed System Leslie Lamport
http://research.micr...time-clocks.pdf

This post has been edited by nacht: 10 August 2015 - 07:18 AM

[nacht]

Two questions to ponder.

If you are immortal, would time matter?
If you are immortal, would you continue to reproduce especially if the offspring have powers that can threaten you.

Consider Silchas, he might be really old but he was doing nothing for a long time. So is his age relevant?
Thinking in this manner, the Azath is a time trap, sucking in the "immortals" when they pose a danger to finite time ecosystems and re-introducing them when they are needed.

[Felisin Fatter]

Look, the (later/rare) immortality does not bother me. And I'm not talking about ages in the Malazan books, that's a different topic...

It's just that tiste society and family structure pre-sundering as depicted in FoD seems... I dunno... inconsistent? Illogical? It keeps distracting me anyway, feels like a plot hole. I hope the later books touch on this somehow.

[nacht]

Felisin Fatter, on 10 August 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

Look, the (later/rare) immortality does not bother me. And I'm not talking about ages in the Malazan books, that's a different topic...

It's just that tiste society and family structure pre-sundering as depicted in FoD seems... I dunno... inconsistent? Illogical? It keeps distracting me anyway, feels like a plot hole. I hope the later books touch on this somehow.

It seems that in FoD, there had regular "human" type family structures and timelines (puberty (spite, youth, middle age, parenthood etc.). Here time is measured in tiste years. Maybe the tiste have 5 or 6 generations existent at the same time (i.e. if wars did not kill people prematurely)


After this at some point, they become immortal and no longer have children and are transplanted into the malazan world where members of some other race are going through their quick movie like existence (in terms of tiste viewpoint). Here each tiste year might be equal to 1000 human years

Just a hypothesis, anyway.

[Abyss]

Tiste Simeon, on 08 August 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

Well I'm 30 with no kids. Not sure if that helps or what.

It helps. You keep up the good work.

Sincerely,
The Gene Pool.

[Felisin Fatter]

nacht, on 10 August 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

Felisin Fatter, on 10 August 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

Look, the (later/rare) immortality does not bother me. And I'm not talking about ages in the Malazan books, that's a different topic...

It's just that tiste society and family structure pre-sundering as depicted in FoD seems... I dunno... inconsistent? Illogical? It keeps distracting me anyway, feels like a plot hole. I hope the later books touch on this somehow.

It seems that in FoD, there had regular "human" type family structures and timelines (puberty (spite, youth, middle age, parenthood etc.). Here time is measured in tiste years. Maybe the tiste have 5 or 6 generations existent at the same time (i.e. if wars did not kill people prematurely)


After this at some point, they become immortal and no longer have children and are transplanted into the malazan world where members of some other race are going through their quick movie like existence (in terms of tiste viewpoint). Here each tiste year might be equal to 1000 human years

Just a hypothesis, anyway.

Yeah, that doesn't help if we stay within the FoD story. It is clearly said that Enesdia is 17 (or so), Orfantal is 5-6 and Draconus' adopted mother died 'unexpectedly' at around 500. Even if every year is 1k human years, it doesn't change the problem (makes it worse, rather).
Where are the 5-6 generations you mention? (I would expect more like 10-12 generations (with gaps where disease or war struck).) Why are all the families so small? And why are 60-year olds considered elderly by themselves and others if they can expect to live another 600 years?

[Andorion]

Something happened in the civil wars which gave the ANdii their huge lifespan? I think something related to MD turning into an actual goddess?

[Nevyn]

Andorion, on 11 August 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Something happened in the civil wars which gave the ANdii their huge lifespan? I think something related to MD turning into an actual goddess?

This is no doubt somewhat true, but not really what the question was about. It is more the answer to how all the ancient Andii live to MBotF times.

This is mainly asking about supposed discrepancies within FoD.

And while I'll admit it is bothersome, there are some mitigating factors.

As to Orfantal's seeming maturity for his age, I will not re-read his sections, but I think we can give the author broad license on that one.

As to Sand's mom being only about 50, what is this supposition based on. From the century quote she could easily have been 80 when she gave birth to Sand. And Sand clearly had Orfantal before she was at a typical marrying age. In other words I think the OP read too much into how young Sand was when she had Orfantal. I think we can infer that giving birth that young is very unusual. I also don't know how young Feren actually is.

Also lets remember that we see only a small subset of Tiste families, and there is nothing to say there aren't other families about with multiple generations.

And lets remember that this is a society which has recently had wars with the predecessors of the FA. How do you think that would go? For a long lived people that do not tend to have many children, and who stay active and effective for many a generation, that would certainly prune the family trees.

[Nevyn]

Also, these are huge books and we did not all read them all yesterday.

If you are going to reference some factoid mentioned specifically in the text, telling us where (chapter, page, context) it took place would help a lot. Quotes would be even better.

This post has been edited by Nevyn: 11 August 2015 - 05:22 PM

[Kalam&Quick]

My thoery on this is Going with the War culling them off.


I mean think about this. you live in a society where:
1. people live for hundreds, possibly even thousands of years.
2. Have very few children, and usually not until they are a bit older(from what the book tells, usually not til around 50-100 years but not usually past 100 years of age)

Its pretty reasonable to assume, if you were to create an army, its going to usually consist of the most skilled fighters you can get, in this case, most likely being everyone 50-100+ on years,
Thats assuming so if you don't usually have kids after there first century, you probably won't send any women under 100 years old into battle(they can still have kids but old enough to function as grown adults) Meaning if there truly was going to be a large scale war. where hundreds/thousands of people were going to die, its only right to assume it would be these older people, people that are 100+ years old, have been veterans of battles and know how to fight, but if they were to die, they don't directly have young kids to care for or leave behind as orphans.

Now that explains most of the Low-Born tiste.
Also consider the "bandits" and other such factors( wolfs and other creatures eating the wardens, fights and skirmishes between the jheckalac and the border swords) So as for the lowborns go, its somewhat easy to see why there are not as many older Tiste. Especially if you consider that the older they are and the more children/grand children they had,the less they are really needed to provide for their families, the less likely they are to fear for their life and would be more willing to do some dangerous stuff,


Now as for the high borns, even in the Tiste society, we see a very willing population to join the fight, I mean, use Andarist/anomander/silchas as an example. these were 3 "young" tiste who were very well considered to be apart of one of the highest of families, Being of the Purake House, Son to Nimander Himself, Yet they had also ridden off to War, Even more so the fact that Almost every single house mentioned, both Greater and Lesser have some story or relative of which had been apart of the War, Who's to say they arnt just the only members to Survive? i mean,
every single house seems to have a living member or 2, who was in the war, But it wouldn't make sense that every body lived who was in the war.


So basicly, Im assuming, "Most" of the older people had been killed in the wars, And the Ones that either didn't go --MaMA dracon, orfantels grandmother, ETC--or the ones the survived ---Draconus, nimander, Urasander, ETC--- are whats left of the Older population who are now slowly dieing off of old age/living bitter lives.

All the Young kids, are the ones who were birthed after the war(or right before/during the war itself) from the family and relatives who were not sent to battle--Sandalath, some of the high priestesses, kadaspala, ETC--- they were the ones who were CHILDREN at the time of the war or shortly afterwards, and who are now growing up, basically as the first generation without having those grandparents and great grands there with them(which could also explain why they are birthing so young and being such *upstarts*, basically they didn't have the wisdom of the previous generations)

Also consider its not just ONE war they fought.
They fought a HUGE war with the forulkan, As well as a war(possibly multiple) with the Jeck's, which lets face it, Would not be an easy war, An Army of Soletaken who can veer into wolfs the size or ponies/horses, who can cary an antelope in there mouths?
Would be a very costly war. That combined with the fact that they had just ended a War with the forulkan who I'm sure were no easy enemy, seems pretty reasonable that they would not have a whole lot of veterans left,


Also consider that these veterans after the war also disband and kind of do there own thing, with some of them becoming outlaws/bandits, some drinking themselves to death, as well as many of them going off to the mines and forges. it is very possible that most of these Old tiste or just sitting in bars or mines out of the way, not directly influencing the events of the story.


BUT that is just my thoery. I mean, i consider it to be much like the Elves of LoTR, i mean elves there live forever too, if no factors of murder/disease/accidents don't kill them, yet even with them there are still very few elves around from the first and Second ages, i mean we have the big guys like Elrond and Galadriel who have been around for thousands of years, but most elves that you seem to come across are fairly young (around 1-500 years old) even though technically we know that a, for example, wood elf, born back before the first age, has no reason to not still be alive, but we know that factors, like wars, diseases, etc have prevented many from lasting that long.


The only reason i think that anomander and gang form the MBotF lasted the 300k years was because they were under the guidence of Rake and basically moved into moon spawn and basically just dwindled down in numbers slowly over the years until the conflicts of the Main Series, Rake probably trying to keep as many alive as possible for as long as possible because of the fact that so few of the tiste were left as it is.

But thats just my personal Theory.

[Manask]

Nevyn, on 11 August 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

Andorion, on 11 August 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Something happened in the civil wars which gave the ANdii their huge lifespan? I think something related to MD turning into an actual goddess?

This is no doubt somewhat true, but not really what the question was about. It is more the answer to how all the ancient Andii live to MBotF times.

This is mainly asking about supposed discrepancies within FoD.

And while I'll admit it is bothersome, there are some mitigating factors.

As to Orfantal's seeming maturity for his age, I will not re-read his sections, but I think we can give the author broad license on that one.

As to Sand's mom being only about 50, what is this supposition based on. From the century quote she could easily have been 80 when she gave birth to Sand. And Sand clearly had Orfantal before she was at a typical marrying age. In other words I think the OP read too much into how young Sand was when she had Orfantal. I think we can infer that giving birth that young is very unusual. I also don't know how young Feren actually is.

Also lets remember that we see only a small subset of Tiste families, and there is nothing to say there aren't other families about with multiple generations.

And lets remember that this is a society which has recently had wars with the predecessors of the FA. How do you think that would go? For a long lived people that do not tend to have many children, and who stay active and effective for many a generation, that would certainly prune the family trees.

Arathan says, or rather thinks, she is twice his age. That would make her about 35.